AI, VFX and the Future of Filmmaking with Anthony Rubinstein - ep 33

[00:00:12] Hi everyone, welcome to Talking Tech With Creatives podcast, the podcast where we explore the intersection of creativity, technology and the future of work. My name is Stella Oni and this is a space for writers, filmmakers, founders and curious minds who want to understand how creativity is evolving in a rapidly changing world. We have listeners in over 32 countries, which is amazing and growing. I could not believe it.

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[00:01:05] So now today we're exploring how filmmaking is evolving through technology and what that actually means for creatives building careers today. Anthony Rubinstein, I'm going to introduce him and he'll correct me because I picked all this up and he'll correct me if I'm wrong. So he's a London based director and visual effects VFX artist whose work sits at the intersection of film and technology.

[00:01:33] He has a background in engineering from the University of Cambridge, which informs his approach to visual storytelling, combining technical precision with cinematic craft. And I've got a very strong connection to Cambridge. So Anthony and I will be having some conversations around that. He's a zero budget pandemic short. There's something going around, won a young director award at Cannes and was later added to the BFI National Archive.

[00:02:00] Since then, he has gone on to work with global brands, including Meta, Google, Audible, Visa and MasterCard. And I'm sure quite a host of others creating visually striking concept driven campaigns. He's also part of Art Class, a global creative studio shown for bringing together directors, artists and technologies to produce high end commercial and film work. Anthony, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:30] Hello. So let's start at the beginning. What first pulled you into filmmaking and how did that evolve into the kind of work you do today? Because you started out in engineering from the University of Cambridge, and I'm quite curious about that drive. Yes, it's a good question. And thank you for the lovely introduction as well. I think, OK, so I started off with cameras as a teenager, messing around, taking photos, making videos, little films. It was always just a hobby.

[00:02:58] And then I studied engineering at university and I was still doing the filmmaking stuff on the side. And then after university, I actually managed to get a job at Red Bull and I was working in the marketing department. So I was going to all sorts of excellent events and traveling all over the place and basically just filming and editing and doing a lot of stuff for them as a sort of general content ninja, I would say. So, yeah, it was sort of a really cool baptism into this world of filmmaking because, yeah, there were just so many amazing things going on.

[00:03:28] And there were so many unique opportunities and I was just there with a camera and I was very hungry. So a really good opportunity to learn and explore and experiment across the whole creative process. So editing, a bit of directing, working with the team, but sometimes by myself. So that was my start professionally. Did that for a couple of years. And then actually, ever since then, I've been freelance. So for the last sort of six years or so, I've been doing this just in a freelance capacity. And that's the way that most people work, I think, as a filmmaker, because you are always just, yeah, I have a team and lots of great people that I get to work with. But just a freelance director is where I'm at now. So that's amazing.

[00:03:59] So just going back to what you did. So you studied engineering, but you now decided because you've been playing with camera and all that for a long time, you decided that that was what you wanted to do. So do you think that your background in engineering informed anything or do you think that it was just you deciding that, OK, I'm not just going to go ahead with engineering. This is what I want to do. I'm just curious about that decision. Yeah, I guess it's kind of unusual.

[00:04:25] But I think in my head, I see I get really frustrated when we try and separate kind of technical people with creative people. And I think at school, you're pushed into art and science. Sorry, you're pushing to art. You might be pushing to science as two sort of opposing things. And there's so much interlinking between those two disciplines. They're right. I think a lot of the most creative people are also the most technical, right? Innovators and inventors and all the Renaissance masters who are da Vinci drawing and sketching. Yeah, absolutely. These amazing inventions and stuff.

[00:04:52] And I think in my head anyway, I think the difference or the similarity just comes down to being able to sort of to imagine something, right? And to have that vision for something. And I think whether that's art, whether it doesn't need to work or not, whether it's like engineering and it actually needs to be a functional thing that people have to use. I see them as being like very interested. So for me, yeah, it's just about like imagination. And definitely I never I didn't really commit to being an engineer, but that training, that discipline, it definitely comes into the work that I'm doing today.

[00:05:19] On all the jobs that we do, we have to imagine things and we have to design things and we have to find a way of making the camera move through a space. And we're building sets and we're designing machines, mechanisms and everything and all the things that go into making the kind of desired effects on screen. There's a whole world of complexity behind the scenes that, you know, that requires a sort of really deep technical understanding. So for me, yeah, I'm massively, massively interlinked, I think. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:44] I love that because I think it gives you a lot of confidence having those two skills and being able to interlink them. Because most people will think, like you said, gosh, I'm going to go into engineering or I'm going to go because they're looking for what you call stability. So for you, when you decided that this was all you wanted to do, did you were able to get into Red Bull? Did you think in terms of this is stable for me now, this is it for me? Or did you think that, oh, I would do it for a while and then I'm just curious? Yeah, interesting. I think I definitely had a choice.

[00:06:13] I think when you leave university, that's very uncertain. I think for everybody, you get thrust out into the big wide world and everyone says, off you go now, go and achieve. So that's really difficult. And I think you often just take the first thing that you can get as a job. So for me, working at Red Bull was amazing. And I thought, wow, this is super cool, like super young. I was only like 21 and it was very exciting. But I definitely discovered a lot of passion and this whole industry. And I probably would have never considered being a film director at that age. But suddenly that pathway started to unfold in front of me. So I think that's the reason I followed it.

[00:06:41] Had I not got that job, I probably would have done something completely different. But that's how it works with life, isn't it? Yeah, you open one door and then that's where you go. And then there's another set of doors that open behind that. And yeah, obviously I'm not in any way like an engineer and I never worked as an engineer. So it's not something that I have professional experience in at all. It was just the degree that I chose to study at university. And I think a lot of people have that where they choose a degree and then they actually end up going in quite a different direction. But it's still just something that they're interested in.

[00:07:06] And it's still something that sort of makes part of their whole necessarily like the thing they do forever. Because who knows when they're 17 or 18 about what they want to do forever. No, you're fearless, aren't you? At that time, because I remember me being 21 and I stumbled into working with a publishing house. And I was writing and I was going out into it. I was like in journalism and it was so exciting. Taking photos and all that. And that never left me.

[00:07:34] And then we are in the world where we can do whatever we want to do now in a way. It's cheaper now to actually be able to scale up very quickly to do what you want to do. So let's go back to your short that you did during the pandemic. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because it's a zero budget short during the pandemic that went to win awards. So I just want to know where the idea came from, how you executed it, what you did. Yeah, this was really fun.

[00:08:00] I think you've got to remember the beginning of the pandemic was a really weird time for everybody. And we were all just kind of stuck at home not knowing what was going on. And me and my partner, who I'm now married to, but we were, this was actually a first test of living together. We got stuck together at home. But we, she works in advertising as well. And we noticed that a lot of the brands were doing these kind of brand response films to the pandemic, which was generally just like a montage of like found footage. And like, don't worry, we'll get through this together sort of spirit.

[00:08:30] And they were awful. Everything that advert out there was just so bad. And it was just so unreal and representative of the experience that we were having. Yeah. And we just, we were like, what is the experience that we are having? Basically, we're sat at home doing nothing. We're on a lot of WhatsApp chats and everybody's trying to find something to do and trying to find entertainment. And actually, it wasn't the kind of like British spirit that was keeping us together. It was the memes. It was the fact that we were like building these kind of stupid contraptions in their garden.

[00:08:56] And that people were like finding silly ways to entertain themselves and sock puppets and all sorts of crazy stuff. And it was these memes. It was these little kind of like videos that were going viral and the dance routines and everything. And that was what the pandemic was like for us. I mean, very lucky that I didn't have a job in the front line. And it would have been totally different if I was working in the NHS. But I think like all us middle class service job people, we were just sitting at home sharing memes. So anyway, so what we decided to do is make a film that was compiling all of the best memes and all of that experience.

[00:09:22] And that's the film that we ended up making was, yeah, it's just a sort of collection of what it was like in lockdown. But told through the kind of, yeah, the memes and the social media kind of. And yeah, I think it obviously resonated with a lot of people. And it ended up getting shared in lots of places. And yeah, putting the BFI National Archive as a sort of Britain on lockdown kind of case study film. And that was really nice. And yeah, it wasn't, we didn't really film anything for it. It was more just found footage that we pulled off. And you pulled things together. Yeah. And I built like a kind of digital world that everything exists in.

[00:09:52] So it feels a bit more than a premium than just this sort of, here's a TikTok video. So it was a good project. It was really fun. I weren't really thinking about it at the time. It was just something to do. It was just a good agreement. So did you then enter it for prizes? How did that work? Because so that just for all the people that are listening, that are, whether it's starting out or doing something like this, how, what do you need to do? Yeah. So there are a lot of film festivals out there. I think that's something that's quite overwhelming. If you make a film, you think, okay, cool. What do I do now? How do I get people to see it?

[00:10:21] And you can go on freeway and there's suddenly a hundred things that you can enter. A lot of money on the film festivals. We entered a certain number of festivals. And I think there's also quite a few advertising award places that are good to champion new talent. Actually, specifically, like the Shiny Awards is great. The 1.4 Awards is worth doing. You've got Kinsale, New Director's Shore List. The Sachi and Sachi do a New Director's Showcase. So actually, if you've got a kind of film and you really understand how to put it into this sort of ad industry world, there are some really good schemes for new directors that are worth entering.

[00:10:50] Whether it's worth entering all the film festivals, I'd be a little bit less positive about that. I think that film festivals, unfortunately, apart from the really big ones. So, yeah, it is really tricky to know what to do with a film, especially in the day and age now that we're at. That, like, it's not, it doesn't matter if you've made something good. Like, you have to suddenly try and find a way of promoting it. A little bit, yeah. A little bit, yeah. So that's the challenge for sure. There is still the possibility that things can go viral in a sense that if something's good, they share it organically. So it's just, yeah.

[00:11:20] So it's just them looking out for what would work for them, but there's quite a lot out there. It's exhausting, isn't it, right? We're just barraged by visual stimulation at every single possible opportunity. And I think we'll come on to this in a bit when we start talking about artificial intelligence. But I think the downsides is just the, it's the overwhelmingness of it and the slopification and the barrage and the fact that you just can't sift through everything. It's so much, it's crazy. Yeah, and you just get, you become numb.

[00:11:49] I think this is one of my takeaways is that actually it's maybe less inspired almost in a way, because suddenly I'm numb to the things that I would have previously loved to have watched and digested. It's a crowded space. So the senses are being overcrowded, overstimulated. That's what we're saying now. I think so. Anyway, we moved straight away onto that. Short films. Anyway, we had a great time making that short film. And fortunately, the right people did see it. And I think to get into the advertising world, you do sometimes need to have had a bit of luck, I think, because it is quite hard to get your first opportunity.

[00:12:18] And I think having a short film that you're proud of and that people can share is actually a really good way to do that. So we were lucky. That was one of my roots in. That's fantastic. So when you start, so I'm looking at, because so you now got into advertising and you're doing all these major projects now for big companies. So how does it feel? Because when you were starting, I was a personal project. Now you're working with major brands. Like what are the brands looking for when it comes to storytelling? Because there's always a lot about storytelling.

[00:12:47] Storytelling seems to be at the heart of things. But what does storytelling mean? For brands, I wish I wouldn't have got the answer at all. How do you nail it every time with a brand? I think that there's a sort of complicated relationship between the artist and the executor. I don't mean that in the sense of chopping someone's head. I just mean the sense of doing the work. I think that sometimes the directors in particular can get a bit too stuck in the kind of, I am an artist and this is my work world.

[00:13:13] And I kind of think that the most successful way to work with brands is generally just to do what they want and be the person who executes the kind of the vision that somebody else has already had for it. Which might be the creatives and the ad agency or it might be the client themselves. So I think for a harmonious and happy life, working out where it's worth having a conflict. It's very small. And I think that we often forget as well that a brand is spending a huge amount of money. Making a film is such a big investment. It's such a big commitment.

[00:13:39] When you actually put that in real terms, like what they could do with that money is just, it's mind-blowing, isn't it? They're trusting you to make the right decisions and bring the right people together to create something that's going to be valuable to them. And you shouldn't take that too lightly. So I do think that, yeah, you've just got to respect them a bit. Because we also, we spend a lot of time complaining about clients and we spend a lot of time complaining about the kind of the awful decisions they make. And every time they come in with a round of feedback, they're smacking this piñata. You've got this lovely, beautiful thing and the candy's falling out.

[00:14:09] It's just like a husk. And it doesn't have all that kind of original intent that you might have decided for it. But fundamentally, they're paying for it and it is their thing and you have to respect that. So that's the dance, isn't it? That's the dance of working in commercial creativity. And I think that is something that we have to respect and understand. Yeah, because the way the world is now, for me, I have a background in analytics and I know that the clients want something done.

[00:14:35] The first thing they're going to look at is what they feel that their audience or their clients or whoever, what they feel that they will respond to. And they will give you that brief, I think. Do you feel that, because we're looking at the commercial world now, so do you feel that when they give that brief, do you feel that they hit the mark or do you think it's a miss? Yeah, there's a lot of bad briefs out there and there's a lot of bad ideas and there's a lot of stuff that, like you were saying with data, that they're just looking exclusively at the data.

[00:15:04] That's it, yeah. Tracking the system one or whatever, whether somebody feels this at this specific second. And I think that really probably does take away a lot of the craft when you start going to that sort of, use maths to explain human emotion. And that's me as a technical person, because I definitely believe in some of that. But some brands are just more willing to take a risk, aren't they? Like some brands don't want to do anything that, or some clients, maybe the people you're dealing with, their job is not necessarily to make the best film that's ever been made.

[00:15:31] To just not get fired and to do something that kind of is acceptable and won't get them in trouble and won't ruffle too many feathers. That can cause a lot of conflict. And sometimes in order to justify the things that are done and the ideas and the briefs and stuff, you do have all that kind of testing and the analytics. When a script goes through the kind of testing process, that does unfortunately limit you because you can't really deviate too much from that. But then I think what I was saying previously is the director's job then doesn't become to be, you're not the artist. You're not the kind of visionary.

[00:15:58] You're not trying to pretend that this is some unique creative work that only exists in your head. It's you getting called in to execute, to deliver, to make the thing that you've been asked to do. And if you say it that way, then I don't think it's a bad thing at all because you're like, oh, whatever. I'm just making an eye for someone else. This isn't my thing. Who cares? But do you feel that, because this is me going to the rabbit hole now about this. So let's look at the streaming channels and we look at Hollywood because now it looks as if the Hollywood studios now there's less and less. And then you have the streaming channel that seems to be hitting the marks one way or the other.

[00:16:27] So I don't feel that it's any different from what they're doing. Even though I think it's all hit and miss anyway. So somehow or the other, you might watch something. I think with the streaming channels, you have choices. With Hollywood, they bring out a film. There's a hit, there's a hit. If there's no hit, that's it. It tanks. So what do you think about when you compare those, so filmmaking itself, when you compare a movie, a feature film, episode, whatever that they're trying to do?

[00:16:55] Do you think it's the same kind of, is it the same kind of process behind it, thinking behind it, trying to get this audience, grab their attention? Is it the same kind of thing or do you think they're different? Yeah, like relying on the data and using the kind of analytics and stuff to define the content. I know that Netflix are very keen on all of that and they spend a lot of time and effort into sort of, you know. You're looking at the analytics. Yeah, analytics and addiction and just trying to keep you stuck in and keep you watching.

[00:17:19] And I think, I get frustrated when you see a series that's 20 episodes and you're like, that's so many episodes. The fact is that the movie business is changing a huge amount, isn't it? People don't want to go to the cinema to the same extent. And I still think that Netflix and Hollywood is still very much like that aspirational higher tier of the top level of visual media. So they're still, whatever happens, they're still commissioning amazing stories and brilliant writers and they're still propping up the industry, aren't they, Netflix? They're still...

[00:17:49] They are, they are, absolutely. And yeah, that's where the best stuff is being made. And I guess they are, there is a sort of tech bro-ification probably, isn't there, where they're trying to optimise everything. But for what I do in commercials, I feel like I'm pretty far away from that side of the industry. And one day it would be amazing to reach that, but it's not something that I spend most of my days worrying about.

[00:18:14] As long as there is always a need for a kind of a film director to do those bigger projects, I think that's the sort of, that's the, let's just hope that stays the same and that there is a job there for someone. So let's talk about VFX because there's lots of talks. I've spoken to one or two people who have done visual effects and I spoke to someone that did animation and worked with Disney and explained all the process and it was very involved and very, I don't even know what to put it.

[00:18:43] So maybe, so I like Marvel, I like Star Wars, I like the Marvel universe. So I go to watch if Marvel comes out, then I go to watch and I know there's a lot of visual effects there. So can you just take us through what you do with visual effects? Okay. Okay. So this, I think that there used to be only two ways of making, if you think, if you make a film or you make a photo or you do anything to do with visuals, your final output will probably be pixels.

[00:19:10] You will just make colored dots on a screen and then that turns into a video. There's one way of making pixels, which is you capture it with a camera. That's the traditional old fashioned way. And then of course, CGI VFX is you're using a computer to make. And visual effects traditionally used to be very complicated, very slow. It was all based to make something that looks photo real. It was all based on actual physics.

[00:19:35] They would simulate the way the light bounces around the room and it would be very long and tedious and you'd get the material properties and the reflections and everything. And that would be what would make your visual effects world. And Marvel, like you were just talking about, that's the processes they use to create those incredibly complicated, big and detailed worlds. In the last year, we have stumbled into this world where there's now a third way of creating pixels on a screen. And that's using artificial intelligence. And it skips out. Oh my God, I'm all ears now. Yeah.

[00:20:03] Well, we can really talk about it, really, because this is the biggest paradigm shift that there probably has ever been in the visual media world. Because this third way of making pixels is you just type in, what do I want? What should this pixel be? And the artificial intelligence says, yeah, that pixel should be blue or that pixel should be brown. And it skips out all of that very tedious physics process that was working out what that color should be very scientifically. It just says, no, no, this is the final result. There you go. So that is, that in a nutshell is, yeah, what AI is for visual effects.

[00:20:30] It's a new way of making pixels on a screen that we didn't really have before. Wow. So does that mean that, so are you using natural language to do that? Just description or how does it work? Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure that most people have experimented with Gemini, ChatGPT, you know, maybe an image of, and you press go and it does it for you. And I won't actually lie, at the high end of visual effects and commercials, we're doing that too. There isn't really any more sophisticated way of using these tools. You really do just type it in and press go.

[00:20:58] And I think that's the thing that, unfortunately, is leading to this sloppification. It's actually so easy now to make those pixels. You just type it in and you press go. And every week there's a new model that comes out that does it better and better than the last one. And all these techniques and stuff that used to be so laborious and requires so many years of expertise are very much now just at the fingertips of anyone.

[00:21:21] So, yeah, we're in this, like, very different world where basically anyone can make high-end cinematic-looking visuals. Anyone. Anyone at all. And I'm sure most people have, right? I'm sure most people have probably explored image generation at this point. So, yeah, that's it. And the big question is where does it leave people like me who used to do it in a very complicated slow old fashion straight into this new way of doing things? There's a lot of resistance. A lot of people are very upset. The clients know. Does anyone care? I don't know.

[00:21:50] I don't know the answer to all these questions. Do you think then that the clients, what does that mean for you? Because my own understanding, anyway, is that the people that have their subject matter experts, you know your domain very well, and you combine that with AI, it puts you at the top in a way. Supercharged, yeah, like a jetpack, isn't it? Imagine what you already know. And the rest is slop, as you say.

[00:22:20] But what we're saying is that do you think that the people, that people care or not? Because I do. I care about what I'm consuming. I think we like to think we care, don't we? But in reality, if you can't tell the difference between something that's AI generated and something that's human generated or human made, then. Oh, wow. Then what's to say? And we've basically reached out now. Can't tell the difference. Wow. I think that's true. I think when you go on social media now. So I'm doing a lot of DIY in my house and I get a lot of renovation videos.

[00:22:47] And there's a lot of AI generated renovation videos and they look real. Of course, those ones you won't care whether it's human or not because you're trying to get the information. Yeah, kind of. It's actually like a transformation. There'll be like a kind of, there'll be like an old garden and then they'll create a fake time lapse or something. And then you see all these people coming in and the finished garden and it would look like it could be real. But there'll be certain things in there that I can see. But a lot of people can't. So, yeah, we're in a really strange world where, yeah, what's real has just completely disappeared.

[00:23:16] And it's going to get more problematic, I think, very quickly. It's going to get more problematic. When you start impacting, I think we've all been vaguely aware of. There was like the Pope in the puffer jacket and things like that. There are certain images and certain videos that go viral with real people. And once it's happened, it doesn't really matter if it then gets debunked as being fake. So, yeah. So, yeah. There's a lot of things that have changed very quickly. But in terms of how it affects, like artists and people with technical skill.

[00:23:41] So, yeah, like you said, if you've got the skills already and you can plug yourself into these new tools and make better stuff more quickly, then that's absolutely great for you. I think the thing that's often overlooked is that, particularly in the AI kind of video generation world, is the fact that there is only a finite amount of attention, right, across the internet. Like, in certain industries, you can just keep going bigger and stronger and taller and blah, blah, blah. There is no limit.

[00:24:05] Whereas the limit that we have if you're trying to consume, if you're trying to create videos that people are going to watch is how much attention people have. And I think one of the problems with the fact that suddenly everybody can just pump out all of this stuff or good stuff is that actually you're not making any more attention. So all it's doing is just burying the good stuff. And I think it's almost harder now as a result. Because, yes, the stuff you make might end up being better and might be turbocharged.

[00:24:32] It's fight against so much more that it was never fighting with. And there isn't really going to ever be a way that people can consume all the sort of only all the best stuff without sifting through all of the rubbish stuff. So that's one of the challenges that comes with that. But could that not be because, like, in the publishing world, the writing world, what we talked about was building your own community. I don't say the same for you because you're working for commercial brands that have to build those communities. You're just doing a job. You're doing a job for them.

[00:25:00] But what we're, like, seeing is that if you build your own community, then those people are likely to follow you. But if you're trying to head for mass market, then that's where the problem comes. Because how are you going to pull mass market, like you said, when the attention is divided? Because what I feel I see in the future is people niching down to the things that they'll get to a point where people are overwhelmed. And I think it's happening. For me, I am anyway. So I've got a whole load of books and I'm reading my books.

[00:25:29] I read across audio and e-book and digital and physical books. But I find myself wanting to hold books more and more now. For the safety of a physical thing. And yeah, I'm going to throw an ad at you or something like that in the middle of it. That's it. And I found myself going for the things I actually just like. So as much as Netflix might draw so many things my way, I'll still go for what I like. And I think that will happen to people more and more. People are going to niche down to what they actually enjoy.

[00:26:00] But I don't know about mass market. I'm just saying that niching down. It looks like niching down might be the trend in the future. It's almost like tribes where people are just going to become tribes. So, well, I don't know. Maybe, but that's what I feel. I think it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And yeah, I think the sort of general numbing to basically it used to be that social media was everything. And that was all that matters. And now actually it's basically just so overwhelming and usable.

[00:26:27] Probably quite hard now to even start if you were a creative person. And I was lucky enough to ride the wave of when these social platforms were growing and growing. And that was the sort of platform that helped me. That was like my marketing operation. I would just, I think it's Instagram and that's how I would get new jobs. But yeah, now it's a very different landscape. And I think a lot harder to promote yourself because it will just be buried. Anything you put out there is just buried. Yeah, so you're just buried. So when you say buried, so you're buried. Is it like, are you aiming?

[00:26:57] So because are you aiming for everyone in what you're doing? I'm not talking about your commercial work now for the companies. I'm talking about your work now. Let's say you want to do something artistic for yourself. Who are you aiming for? And you think that those audience that you're aiming for, do you think that you cannot get their attention now? Or do you think that going into a community is the best way? I'm lucky that I do have quite a lot of followers on social media. Yeah, you do actually, yes. The fact now is that they won't see most of the stuff that I make because of the fact the algorithms have shifted in a way where it doesn't necessarily... Yeah, that's what I can't stand.

[00:27:27] It doesn't show you the things from the people you follow. It's just designed to addict. And they've changed everything really. And it's... It is, yeah. Yeah. And shitification is what they say, right? Isn't it? These platforms squeezed in a way that kind of maximizes the addiction and removes the reason that you went there in the first place and try and sell as many ads as possible. And I think that is the truth about social media, like late stage social media, I think, the other day, which I thought was quite nice. Yeah. So... But that's where we are.

[00:27:56] It's a shame because I think the social platforms we had 10 years ago were actually a lot better for community. And they were a lot better for creative people because it meant that people could really subscribe and follow and keep along with their journey. But there are other platforms out there that do that. And I think that we will just move onto the platforms that suit us better. But it's just a bit hard to desert the one that you've built the audience on. Already built, yeah. Well, that happens. Yeah, that's why they always say that create your own... You're renting this space. It's silly to think that it ever was something for you.

[00:28:25] It wasn't just a tool that was designed to make a lot of money for investors or other people who built it. Yeah. So, yeah. But, hey, I think that's one of the good things about working for brands is that actually I don't have to worry so much about kind of my own personal audience. I just have a job which is making films for brands. And that's great because then they're the ones who have to worry about navigating the social media. Oh, that's your thing. If I was just an artist and I was just trying to get all my work out there and do stuff that was serving my own audience, like I think it would be more stressful.

[00:28:54] So it is quite nice to just be employed to do your job sometimes. So what do you say to people who are... Because you, like you said, you started a while back. You were lucky to ride the waves and everything. So, number one, let me ask you two questions. Number one, how do you pivot? So now that you can see what is happening with social media, what are you going to do for the future to ensure that you still have your relevance there? Because I know you're doing commercial work,

[00:29:22] but I think you might want to do some other kind of work as well, artistic work. So how do you... What do you see as the future? Since the social media platforms are not as reliable as they used to be. And then if someone else... People are starting out now. What advice do you give someone that is starting out with all of these challenges now? It's a good question, isn't it? I guess for the future, I... Who knows? I haven't got a crystal ball. AI is a very fast-moving thing. Every week there's a new thing that you're using.

[00:29:51] And one thing I am quite enjoying at the moment is that every time I get a brief, there'll be some new piece of software that I want to try. There'll be some tool that has just been released. And I think, oh, yeah, that actually would be really good for that. And I can try this and I can try that. And I think it's that experimentation, actually, that's really exciting. That's really cool. Because you kind of need to have a brief and a reason to explore something new. You need somebody to be tapping their watch and be like, come on, I need this tomorrow. And we've only got this much budget.

[00:30:21] And there's some kind of new tool to master. And I kind of think that's when actually all this AI stuff will become fun, is when we get to the point that we can master it. Because it was fun to be creative when you were better than everybody else at it, because you'd spent 10 years working on it. That's what visual effects used to be for me. And now suddenly everybody's got that. It's not fun anymore. Because I'm like, guys, I put loads of effort into it. So everybody's got it now. Everybody has got it on their fingertips. Which is good for you. It's not as good for me, yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:50] But if we get to a point where, you know, and I think with AI as well, like text input is not very good creatively, because you just can't refine the details that you want. If the job of making a film becomes just typing in a text prompt, pressing go, and then pressing go, and then pressing go, until you get one thing you like, it's not going to be a very rewarding process. Nah, it's just like generative AI for text, for writing, for creativity. Yeah, just what's the job of a writer? If AI is going to sit down and write. What bit of it can you master? You need to find something to master. Yeah, you really need to, yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:20] But with video generation, like, what is happening quite quickly is, are people building tools that give you the same level of control that you used to have with visual effects? Because in visual effects, I can change any pixel. I can do anything. If somebody makes that slightly bigger or change that or move the logo, we can do all of that. Yeah. With generative AI, we don't really have those tools yet, but there will come a point where actually that becomes the way that we work. So it will be like, I can have the intention, and I can work out exactly what the camera move is, and I can give all the information that I would normally put into the visual effects process.

[00:31:50] Do that with AI so it comes out much more quickly. And that's the thing that will be really cool, because then there'll be a whole reason for having a director, because that's somebody who's got this intention, and somebody who can draw on all of their experience, and their things that they consume in the real world, and the architectural, and the art, and all the things they've read, and eaten, and experienced. And that's what goes into art. Whereas if you're just typing in a text prompt with pressing go, you're not really using any of that experience that you've had as a human to make the output. The output just arrives, and you're like, okay, cool.

[00:32:19] Yeah, the output is quite random, isn't it? I don't know whether I can output the same thing over and over again, because every time you want it to output, I don't know, my experience, of course, is different from yours, because I'm talking about images, it will come out with different things, so it doesn't quite come out with the same thing. But I know some groups that are playing around with illustration, and they were talking about actually, you can actually hard code certain things at the back end using JSON, using the scripts. Yeah, I've seen a bit of that, like JSON prompting stuff.

[00:32:49] I think it comes down to the idea of control and intention, because yeah, if you're going to summarize the thing in one sentence, are you really going to explain everything that you want, or are you going to find a way of conveying what's in your head through one little line of text? Probably not. But if we can have more inputs, we can have more control, and we can have more fidelity, then we get to a point where we're actually are producing creative work that has the intention that you want. That's it. Something important to that. I think that's going to be cool. With the intention that you want, because at the moment, you just spout it out, and then you're not quite happy,

[00:33:19] you're not quite satisfied with it, when it comes out, and then it comes out with another random thing. It's like, it's hollow, isn't it? It's hollow, because it doesn't have that soul that you've built through all the processing. The process used to be... The depth, the richness, the, you know... It doesn't have the depth, yeah. Yeah. It just lacks... Creative people do the process, don't we? You've got the input and the output, but we live here in the middle, which is the bit that goes round and round and round and round, and then eventually you get to there. If you just go from here to there without doing this bit, you've missed out the creative process, so what was the point?

[00:33:50] It's not satisfactory. Yeah, exactly. That's my take on it. But I think the bigger challenge is that actually, if the client is happy with the output straight away, do you need all of that bit in the middle? So as an artist, you do need the bit in the middle, but if the people are like, yeah, sure, we'll sign off on the hollow output, then yeah, that's the tricky thing. Yeah. So we're working that out, but I hope that, I hope that, like you were saying about Hollywood, I think that, yes, we can AI generate movies probably. Can't generate is the drama off screen.

[00:34:19] And this actor has been doing this and crashed his car and was sleeping with this person. And then this thing happened and that shot was a kind of an accident. It's the story around it. That's also almost as interesting as the kind of final thing itself. And I think that's something that is deeply human and that actually very hard to replace with AI. Yeah, because I'm in a technology world anyway, all I'm hearing now, for example, is the cyborg. This combination of human and AI.

[00:34:48] So you're not going to completely have, we have all sorts. There was this guy called Ethan Mollick that wrote this. Oh, I forgot him now. I forgot him. I think it's Co... I'll remember it now, the title. But he wrote about co-intelligence. So I can't remember the whole of the title. And he had different ideas of how humans can co... He's been studying AI for many years. How we can coexist with AI. But one of the things that seems to be coming out is the cyborg where you're,

[00:35:18] like I told you, where you have your domain expertise very closely with AI to bring out something new, something different. So it's not just spouting out this slop that you're talking about, but it's a bit like that. Yeah, yeah. Inter-woven way of working. But my second question is, anyone just starting out now, what's your advice for them? And the tools as well. I'm not near the end of the interview, but I don't want to miss this. Yeah, that's a good question. It's good luck. It's a very hard time, I think, to be able to create a process.

[00:35:47] Harder than any other time, really, because there isn't a pathway. Like previously, there was a path and you would follow that path. Now, what is at the top of that hill is very unknown and very unclear. And I think that I might have previously have said, you should find the thing that you like the most and you should stick to that lane and you should try and excel in that lane. I actually think that's probably not the best advice at the moment. I think that because every day there's a new tool to master and every day there's something that comes out that changes the way that we work and it changes this and changes that. Probably the best thing to do is just to be really curious across the board and just be really,

[00:36:17] just to explore and experiment and play. And that's where the best part seems to come from is just play. It's when you do something just for the fun of it and you're messing around and you're trying out something and you're just exploring. And because we're all figuring out what we can do with these new tools, like what things work and what things don't work. I'm doing that on professional jobs at the moment. They'll be like, we're going to use AI to do this and we try and it fails. But I'm, yeah, I'm exploring just as much as everybody else. And that's, I think, the best thing to do, right? I think you'll stumble

[00:36:47] on something that does work or something that fills your soul with passion and excitement. And I don't think that's text prompting to make films. I don't think that would fill anyone's soul with excitement really because no one's going to watch it. But I think there are ways of working these, yeah, these AI tools into your workflow and exploring what can be done with them and combining it with the traditional tools that we've already got. And all of that coming together is the exciting thing. But I don't know what that is and I don't think anyone really knows what that is yet. So I think it's all about just generally getting stuck in as many ways as possible.

[00:37:17] Now, what are the tools? Oh, yeah, go on. What are the tools? The starting point kind of tools because in the past, I used to hear about, like I used to hear about, what are those tools called now? I used to hear about Adobe. I don't know. Adobe, all sorts of tools. I forgot. Yeah, we all use Adobe. Adobe is still very much. Adobe is very much the kind of Premiere Pro. Yeah, but Premiere is the backbone of all video editing. So a lot of people use DaVinci, Resolve, which is a free all time. So I'd recommend that.

[00:37:46] I think editing itself is definitely a very useful skill. And that's hopefully something that still needs a bit of a human eye. Assembling clips on a timeline. I think that, yeah, again, any kind of 3D software, like your Blenders and your Cinema 4D and your Maya and your Houdini, it was always quite intimidating to know which one you're going to choose and which one you're going to learn, which one's going to be the one that you start using. I think Blender's probably always going to be useful because of the way that it's open sourced and the way that people are constantly building stuff for Blender and it's really useful.

[00:38:16] But in terms of AI workflows, Comfy UI seems to be the place that people are starting to build a lot of really interesting tools. And I think that what we need is a piece of software that can be the go-to place for people to start building AI workflows. So Comfy UI seems to be the place that that can happen. So actually, if you're going to learn anything, maybe, yeah, get stuck into Comfy UI and see what you can create. Because a lot of what I hear at the moment from filmmakers or people that are just starting out in the business, not yourselves, but it's like the cost of credit, you know,

[00:38:45] the platform that you run out of. It's from generating. Yeah, yeah. From generating. So that's an issue for them. Yeah, we haven't even talked about the impact of all these AI tools is that every time you click go or every time you press generate, it's not magic. Like, it is churning around some data in a data center, isn't it, to make that thing for you? So I guess that, I don't know what the answer is really, but let's not assume that these things are like infinite and that you have to be. Filmmaking has always been about what can you do with finite resources, right? If you're out on set

[00:39:14] or if you're shooting on film, film is a finite resource. You have a certain amount of film frames, real, and I think traditional filmmakers who used to shoot on 35mm were probably much more sensitive about when they called cut and when they called action and stuff because every single frame was pressure. Good old days, huh? Yeah. Maybe we're going back there. Maybe you're going back to a point where you've got to make this with 100 credits and that's all you're going to be able to do. So you've got to know exactly what you're doing with them and you're using them in the right way. But that comes back to what I was saying about mastery because unfortunately

[00:39:43] if you're just typing stuff in and you're burning credits, I don't think you can master that process. I just think that process is too random. So I think we need to find processes that you can master and then when you burn the credits, you know that you're doing it for the right reason, not just because you're hoping that one of them will look good and you'll like it. And I think that's the sort of the thing that hasn't been solved yet. Like how do we get to... Yeah. So is it like we're looking for the equivalent of the 10,000 hours that you spend trying to let... It is 10,000 hours but it's also there doesn't exist a tool that you can

[00:40:12] put 10,000 hours into. Oh my God. Because all we have at the moment is Google Gemini or we've got C-Dance which just dropped and these are all like very early stage models that have just been like put out there on the internet for people to try. But there isn't like a place that you can invest your time and your brainpower and your resources into like learning and upskilling how best to use these AI tools really because there isn't like a... I guess you could experiment with exactly what prompts give the right answers but in my head that will never be the way that we do it. In my head that we need to build

[00:40:42] tools that incorporate AI into it but that still give you the creative control that you would traditionally have in a CGI or a VFX workflow. So it becomes actually not to get too technical but AI becomes the rendering which is the way that the pixels are painted but you decide what the world should look like and maybe you build it with kind of Lego blocks or something in a computer and then you say I want my camera to move like this and I want it to be this kind of tone and I want this this type of lighting etc etc. and then AI does that work for you of painting the pixels

[00:41:11] I think that would be the most powerful output and the most powerful workflow for creative people because that's something that you can master and you can have your intention. So if you want so what we're saying is that if you want that high quality output you do all your whatever you need to do you create all your workflows you do everything that you need to do almost and then AI then follows that through and renders or Yeah the example would be when we're doing CGI like you might have seen this in the Marvel behind the scenes they start a grayscale world

[00:41:41] it's just grey and they do the rendering and the parses and the layers and the compositing and the dust and the textures and all of that sort of stuff that was very tedious I think the AI can take the sort of grayscale reference of this is what the world needs to look like roughly and then take it to its finished product very quickly so that would be I think a really cool workflow but unfortunately yeah the tools to do that don't really exist yet so it's not something that you can master as a filmmaker but yeah someone will build this but it doesn't exist yet so that's why I was saying that the best advice that I have

[00:42:11] is just to get stuck in and just explore everything because who knows what's going to be the useful stuff to know Yeah so you've worked for big big companies you've done quite a lot of global companies can you tell us the ones that some of the exciting ones that you've done I don't want to say ask which one is the best ones but the exciting because I saw one of your I looked at your portfolio and I saw one amazing effect that you did I think it was something that was coming out of the screen can't remember now

[00:42:41] and it was amazing yeah that was probably I was so fascinated I was like like I kept watching it over and over I loved it I loved it thank you yeah I think that was Meta maybe when we did I think it was yeah Circus yeah yeah that was fun I'm working with a really cool team of animators on that oh my word that was amazing definitely not just me when you've got a project that's that big so how does that work when you're working in a team like that I love it because there's all these people who are there to do the thing that's in your head

[00:43:10] and that's so cool and they're so good that's the best thing about filmmaking and that's why I love being on set and I love working with these big teams because yeah you bring in all these people who've got these really unique experiences and they're very weird in the thing that they've chosen to do there might be somebody who's just amazing at food styling and they make the food look really good and there might be somebody else like an amazing choreographer and you bring all these people together and suddenly it's this amazing everyone's singing in harmony to make this yeah like a ton of synergy and you're the director and it's your the thing that's in your head and they're listening to you and that's the coolest thing like being on set

[00:43:40] and directing a big crew of amazingly talented individual people who are much better than you are in that specific department as well I get to work with cinematographers who are so much better than I am at cinematography and animators who are much much better than I am at animating and that's the really cool thing is that yeah everybody has their skill and they all come together wow so that's cool but yeah I'm lucky to work on a lot of really nice big projects like that one I did a really great shoot in my first trip to LA was for Pepsi and we were shooting Camila Cabello pop star and we were doing

[00:44:10] the announcement video for her Champions League performance she did the halftime show at the Champions League final so that was really great because yeah she's obviously amazing ALS talent and it was in Hollywood and we were shooting at Universal it was a big green screen studio and it felt very much like a wow is this real kind of moment and yeah I got a big American crew like 70 people who were all there to make the thing that started in my head so that's really cool wow that's amazing and I saw you with David Beckham

[00:44:39] so I saw a picture of you and David Beckham and I said how cool is that yeah that's one of the good things about the commercial as well is they're always going to want to use celebrities so you get to hang out with celebrities he was very nice David Beckham and I think actually that's another good thing that probably won't go away with the AI technology is that actually having a famous face and a real recognisable trusted person that you know is real is going to be an important thing for advertisers because they're going to they ought to be

[00:45:09] cloning them though maybe yeah maybe they'll license their face but then that would defeat the point if everybody was able to use David Beckham's face his face would be worthless wouldn't it so the fact that he does choose to do a certain number of advertising films every year and I hope that yeah there'll still be that role of capturing a celebrity or a personality or someone who is a real person with a real camera for a while just because I think that's the one thing that a brand can do to be different or to prove that they are credible

[00:45:39] because this credible person is willing to force them so yeah yeah so who would who would you like to work with that would make you absolutely joyous I don't know if I've got an answer for this one funny because actually a lot of the people I respect the most are like some of the big directors and I'll never get to work with them oh you never know I don't think I'd ever work with Spielberg or George Lucas or James Cameron or anyone like that but I think that they're amazing but I think yeah they obviously

[00:46:09] the OGs yeah the OGs the impact on culture is just phenomenal isn't it like we haven't making a movie is one of the best things that we've invented as a species for communicating emotions and ideas I know keeping people focused for two hours no one is focused for two hours on anything else really apart from maybe a theatre performance or a play but yeah I think yeah I think cinema is the best thing that we've invented to yeah to convey these things and look at Alberta yeah and the people behind that are really very visionary and just the amount

[00:46:38] of work and obviously a string of lucky events that happen that make these things happen but it's very cool and it should be celebrated because it's really impressive yeah so I'm going to be nearing the end of our interview now but I want to ask you a question of where I know we've talked about the future a lot but I want to what excites you about the future we've talked about the OGs and we talked about how exciting things could be when they go well actually so what do you see as a future for things like

[00:47:08] Hollywood the streaming channels the thing that is going to be exciting if it works well apart from all the slops that are coming out yeah in between the slops okay so what I was just saying is that film is I think the best medium that we've discovered for conveying emotions and communicating and stuff books are good music is good but film is better it's usual that's what I think I just think it's so unique and I kind of think that even through a hundred years of development we haven't really got beyond

[00:47:37] just people sitting there watching a screen that is still the best way to do it VR is not very good that is still the best thing to do it the best way so I kind of think that as long as that's the case which seems likely that will be the case there will be a role for people who want to do storytelling and that can do it at the highest level so that's really cool I think that is exciting that even though the tools and the technology and the way that we do it is changing there's still going to be that job of the film director I think we can be confident that that's true and I think maybe if you worked in other industries you wouldn't be so confident that your

[00:48:07] job is necessary but it's not going to go away it will evolve but it won't go away yeah that's what I think yeah so that's exciting is that actually my skills are probably still going to be useful in a world of AI where things are very different so excited for that and I'm also excited about yeah although I'm very scared of a lot of the new tools that get developed every week particularly like last week there was this one called C-Dance that came along and it's a Chinese model for new generation and it is just light years ahead of everything else and suddenly wow oh my god like the what did you call

[00:48:37] it C-Dance C-Dance S-E-Dance wow yeah C-Dance C-Dance so it's a yeah it's a Chinese video model I keep saying Chinese but I think that they have a different role in the way that they look at the IP and stuff so I kind of think that their models end up being a lot better because they maybe don't people to start talking about AI because

[00:49:06] especially in China so because when he worked in Silicon Valley and then moved back to China and it was the very starting point of how China was developing in technology because they sent a lot of young young students to go and learn in American universities and bring it back to China so his book on AI was amazing it's a good one because it tells you about how like you said they're not thinking about copyright they're not thinking about people who just come and they will create this thing and it's for everybody right isn't it

[00:49:36] like a technology is not to be protected and hidden and profited off it's like profited off but there's a more collectivist attitude I think isn't there that anything is fair game which actually we could benefit from probably because I think our assumption is that whenever you make something in the West it's your right to profit from it as much as possible knock everybody out and not let anybody else develop it or build it and yeah whereas like open source technology is a lot cooler isn't it I don't think it is open source but I think the attitude of just we're all working together

[00:50:05] as a species is cool so in terms of global platform because I know that America like America seems to be looks like they're ahead in terms of and then China if you have China and then you have America that I was hearing about a shift that is showing that it's pulling back into America again especially when it comes to venture capitalism investments in technology and whatnot is pulling back into America but I know that China the way they do things the way they

[00:50:35] put things together very rapidly they really they come up with surprises so how do you see the global platform in terms of who is leading and who is not I can't even think about Britain in terms of this I always think of America so yeah so in video generation which is what I'm talking about here you've got Gemini like that's Google so Google has built a really good model with Gemini you have Kling which is a Chinese model K-L-I-N-G and then

[00:51:05] yeah Seadance is another one that's just come out and that's also a Chinese model I don't ChatGPG does video doesn't it but they just got rid of Sora because the amount of infrastructure that's required to generate these videos and the amount of training data that's required is just gargantuan it's absolutely the quantity that's required it's not as if a startup could ever achieve the results that Google were going to be able to achieve so it has to be it whittles it down to basically just Google I think Anthropoc and Claude can make videos I've never actually really

[00:51:35] explored it that much but I don't think many people in the industry are using it I know a lot of people are using Google and yeah a lot of people using these Chinese models as well and obviously the more they develop these models the better and better and better they become because there's this race to become the industry standard video model for video generation the other thing that's interesting is the way that people can then personalize their models and stuff and that they can find a way of using the Google video generation but inputting different things into it and making the output that you want so that's kind of the way that we can explore creatively

[00:52:05] as you sort of Google are doing the really difficult bit which is yeah but you can find a way of inputting different stuff into that to make the thing that you want but I don't know about who's going to win this race who's going to become the AI super lord who knows super lord oh my god it sounds scary maybe the machines will take over I think yeah definitely should be we should be cautious about this world that we're walking into or stumbling towards because no one's really thinking about the consequences that's the

[00:52:35] other thing are they it's a bit scary yeah when you think about it because and particularly with video generation I think the biggest thing that scares me is that it will be impossible to tell what's real very soon and I think that's really obvious that no one will have a clue whether something is actually real or not can you imagine no matter how so you say I'm real I exist somebody was saying that you need to show your processes show what you've done for you to prove that you're real or your work is real so I don't know definitely

[00:53:05] definitely yeah we'll just find other ways of doing it we'll find other ways of proving that something is human made I'm not sure what that is yet but I think there will be a demand for that people want to know stuff is actually real yeah wow so yeah we have come to the end of my interview so I'm just going to ask what do what do do for fun when you're not doing your and you don't say that vfx is no I'm really into my diy at the moment oh wow so the house that I'm renovating and yeah doing the garden

[00:53:34] and it's been really fun actually I really enjoy the place and the weather is getting better weather is getting better and you start with something that looks intimidating and difficult and it's like a very clear beginning middle and end last weekend and I look at the fence now with so much satisfaction I go oh yeah look at that oh it's it's so simple I just dug some holes and sticks and posts in but I love it I love it like making a physical thing is actually making me very excited maybe digital creativity is less exciting these days than actually than diy

[00:54:05] that's the exciting thing they're saying now that vocational things are the things that you should be thinking about now for the future I totally agree and I actually think the brands as well are going to do that as well I think they're going to be more interested in experiences because of this sloppification because digital the value of digital creativity is going down and down and down that's the truth that's the truth so almost like artisanal we're talking about artisans now yeah yeah or just finding a way that you can do it I don't really know what the answer is but I do think that when something

[00:54:35] becomes easier and cheaper and more ubiquitous obviously like it does just lose its value and that's unfortunately the truth isn't it so we're just going to find other things everything cheaper to produce that's what they were saying digital would be cheaper so yeah people are going to be looking for something that is going to have value and they're going to create value out of that yeah or in my head okay so for art to be good it needs to it needs to be something that I couldn't do I think I look at something I look at an amazing painting and I think wow I couldn't do that that's very impressive or it needs to take a long time

[00:55:04] yeah it needs to be like laborious like people have to put the effort in to make the good art so if you remove the fact that anyone can do it now basically or sorry if you just make something that anyone can do anyone can generate good art or illustration or digital photography and it doesn't take a long time it loses its value I think so we need to do things that are slow and laborious and that's what for you to have value yeah yeah I think that's what that is value isn't it really otherwise yeah it's just a commodity that anyone can access I hear you I hear you

[00:55:33] so where do you want people to reach out to you at which got a big following on Instagram yeah probably Instagram is the main one I'm a bit of YouTube as well yeah I'm after having complained about Instagram it's still the platform and I still think there's a lot of opportunity to find inspiration and connect with people there it's just harder and harder I think the filters they are good rhythms who sees your work I don't know it's just crazy yeah yeah I sometimes post things and people

[00:56:03] all over the world see it and then they message me and say hey I've got a job for you and that's really cool awesome from Instagram yeah yeah the majority of stuff like would often just come through Instagram so I don't really use LinkedIn just because it's not visual Instagram is visual right yeah Instagram is more visual I can post stuff on LinkedIn I think I just find LinkedIn quite quite yucky the way people communicate what does yucky mean is it like isn't it like the way that people

[00:56:33] are talking is it too corporate is it too formal people in suits it's just like yuck it's too square isn't it so we're not going to find you on LinkedIn anytime soon I don't think anyone's going to hire me from LinkedIn I don't think they're going to find it on LinkedIn I'm sure lots of industries is very useful but for filmmaking I think post on Instagram people are going to look there not on LinkedIn how about

[00:57:03] TikTok yeah I've done a bit of TikTok to be fair I just share the same stuff on Instagram as TikTok yeah I don't have to think about it too much yeah just put the same thing on all the different platforms and then whatever I just dance on TikTok when any dance is trending and I try to try and dance it that's not for me either the dancing definitely no I'm not doom scrolling but behind the scenes goes well people love the behind the scenes so that's always the good stuff to put on there yeah anyway Anthony thank you so much for coming to the podcast

[00:57:33] I really appreciate you sharing you know experience your work everything it was amazing so thank you for having me Stella it's been great I really enjoyed chatting to you best of luck with everything else that you do thank you very much and this is the end of our podcast so that was Anthony Rubinstein that was an amazing interview where we talked about VFX and all the commercial side of it the business side of videography so I've really enjoyed that and I hope that those of you

[00:58:03] that are in the market or in the business or starting out I hope you have something that you have taken away from the interview if you are listening to this or you've listened to any other of my podcast what I encourage the most is please subscribe or follow so that wherever you're watching it from we are on multiple platforms and if you're watching it then you would be watching me on YouTube subscribe so that you can catch up on more of what

[00:58:32] Talking Tech with Creatives will be offering thank you for spending the time with me thank you