Exploring Storytelling, Technology & Representation with Jendella Benson - ep 16

[00:00:16] Hi everyone. Welcome to Talking Tech With Creative Podcast, a podcast where we dive deep into the intersection of technology and creativity in different industries. We have a special guest today, but before I introduce her, I want to talk about what is going on, what is rocking the world at the moment. So what is, what has currently happened is Chargipiti, which quite a lot of people know, has had an

[00:00:46] an AI arrival in Apple App Store called DeepSeek. So DeepSeek AI model works exactly like Chargipiti, but I'm told that it's very good, very, it's brilliant to use. And what is shocking the technology world is that it was made at a fraction of the price of Chargipiti.

[00:01:14] So DeepSeek AI, Chargipiti, billions of dollars were spent on Chargipiti. And in fact, they've just announced Stargate, which is a data center costing $500 billion for Chargipiti. DeepSeek AI, on the other hand, was made in China by a startup company for, I think it's $6.5 million.

[00:01:44] $7 million, under $7 million. The startup company have said that they used non-advanced chips. So NVIDIA is the main supplier of the chips for these AI models.

[00:02:01] But the startup company in China has said that the chips they've used were non-advanced, they were able to put it all together, and they were able to build it fast and in a lean way for that amount of money.

[00:02:17] So as I'm speaking, about $600 billion has been wiped off NVIDIA's shares. One day, one loss for one day, for just the fact that you could build these AI models with chips that are cheap and that can be put together. And it's almost like a wake-up call for the technology world.

[00:02:45] Now, I went to Chargipiti. For those who are listening to this, I might not even have used Chargipiti at all, because I'm assuming everybody has, but not everybody has. I went to Chargipiti to ask it, what is Chargipiti? So Chargipiti is an advanced AI model, language model that understands and generates human-like text for various tasks, including answering questions, writing content, and providing recommendations.

[00:03:15] Chargipiti uses, and Chargipiti uses, they call it, I think it's multimodal, which means it uses audio, it uses text, and it uses audio, text, and if you put graphics, it can actually read your graphics. So if you take a photo of something that has text on it, it's able to read it, and it's able to generate images. That's why it's called multimodal.

[00:03:41] So it's able to generate with whichever way you ask it, it's questioned. So that's Chargipiti. I wanted to explain that for those who might not have used it at all. Go try and play with it.

[00:03:54] I did the previous episode to this one, I did a solo episode on technology in general, and just encouraging people to not bury your head in the sand, but to test this technology.

[00:04:12] So that's why, even if, because quite a lot of people in my world, my literary world, are not happy with the way the companies like OpenAI, the people that are behind Chargipiti, how they were able to scrape data from people like us who are creators, scrape all our data, most of our data, and use it to train the AI model.

[00:04:37] So that's what a lot of authors, people in the creative world, graphic designers, artists are not happy about how, especially authors, because of especially the text, how those information was acquired. But what is happening now is that the future, the way the future is, the direction of the future is more of authors owning their own intellectual property.

[00:05:05] So when I say owning your own intellectual property, I'm not saying that if you've got a publisher, publisher holds your IP, but your intellectual property could even be your social media post, your blog, so many other things that are yours. So I advise you as a creative, not just an author, to create, to start to develop your own community. Don't rely on one platform or other kind of platforms.

[00:05:35] TikTok was actually taken off in the US back, but TikTok was not operating in the US because of US laws. So don't rely on one platform, develop your own, start developing your own community now, because that's what the future holds will be. Community-based, where people will start seeking for the people that they trust the most. The people that they admire, the people that they want to follow. This is what I'm doing at the moment.

[00:06:05] I'm following people. I listen to their podcasts. I, maybe they create a private kind of community. I join that and pay a bit of money to just follow them and listen to them. That's the direction now. So start creating your community now. You can start with a mailing list if you are a creative or an author.

[00:06:25] So even whichever industry you're at, it's vital you have a mailing list for your customers, for people that you're in contact with, so that they know that you exist. They know that you're human. There's a lot going on in the technology world. Things are moving very quickly. China is, well, I follow Kaifu Lee. I've read this book who is, had a lot of things to say about AI.

[00:06:52] I used to be a president of Google and is a leading voice in the AI world. And he had said that the way China produce their technology, the way they develop their technology is different from the way places like the US would develop their technology. So they will be leaner and faster in putting things to the market at a fraction of the cost.

[00:07:14] So that is what is going on now, that the cost of these things, this deep seek have demonstrated that these things do not have to be expensive. Another thing that came to mind was, I need to explore this, but I will say that there's a kind of, I think Microsoft given access to a kind of GPT. So if you've got co-pilot, you might, I need to go and check this properly. So I've not checked it.

[00:07:42] So please do your due diligence, but I'm told that Microsoft might give access to a GPT. So people are paying like maybe $20 or more a month now. So for the cheapest access, which is about $20 a month, you might, if you have co-pilot, have access to that for free. But check that out before you cancel. If you have a charge of GPT, check that out first. So that's what I'm going to say about AI this week.

[00:08:11] I also want to say that I'm still working on the Patreon. So when I have completed it, if you want to join me on Patreon, support me on this podcast, it will be fantastic. And I'm going to make sure that I give value in return.

[00:08:28] And that is sharing what is going on in the technology world and how you can use that to scale up your business, either as a solopreneur or entrepreneur or whichever way you are. How to help you to access or to understand those worlds rather than you just, it could be a bit confusing with everything that's going on out there. So I've got my ears to the ground. So that's what the Patreon is going to be about.

[00:08:54] So without much further delay, let me talk about Jendela Bensin. So today I'm pleased to be speaking with Jendela Bensin, author, editor, speaker, and head of editorial at Black Ballad, a platform that amplifies black women's voices in Britain.

[00:09:18] We'll be diving into her journey as an author, her work in Black Ballad, and how technology is shaping representation in media and publishing. So Jendela, welcome to TalkinTech with Creative Podcasts. I'm so excited to have you here. I really am. So I want us to start with how this whole thing started. How are you going to your journey from the beginning, from secondary school, where they would have told you, I'm sorry to preempt. Don't dream.

[00:09:49] Tell me about your journey, the starting point. Wow, this is going back. This is going back, right? Yeah, we are going back in time. So secondary school, I left secondary school and I wanted to go into media. I wanted to be a broadcast journalist specifically. So I imagined myself on TV, maybe Sky News correspondent.

[00:10:12] And that's, so I went to college and I studied media as well as English and, what else? French and Spanish, I think. Was it French and Spanish? I can't remember. That's how far back we're going. But that's what I was studying. And then what happened after that? And then I think it was second year of college, I decided that I actually wanted to be an artist. I don't know why.

[00:10:38] I thought I wanted to be, or maybe more specifically, a graphic designer. So I decided that I wanted to do graphic design. So I did some crazy switch. I switched out two of my A-levels for art and textiles. And I started going down that path. Yeah, which was quite, it was quite a step change from being broadcast journalist to now deciding that I want to do. I did that. I left college.

[00:11:05] I did a, I think they call it a foundation degree at Camberwell College of Art to fully transition into the art path. I ended up studying graphic design and photography at Kingston University. And then I decided that I wanted, your face is like, where is this going? How is it going? I'm God smugged. I'm enjoying it. I like this. Well, this is good.

[00:11:31] So I started, I did graphic design and photography at Kingston University. Yeah. And then I decided there that I didn't like graphic design at all. I just wanted to do photography. So I left university thinking I'm going to be a freelance photographer. That's what I wanted to be. And immediately after leaving, I started working for a photographer in studio. I started assisting different photographers, professional photographers, building up my experience.

[00:12:00] I started working full time in studio for one photographer called John Wright, who was like a commercial photographer. So I was like in there every day, assisting with shoots, but also doing admin. And it was funny because at the time he launched a kind of like a website, which was meant to be fashion and culture. And it was actually called Caffeine Nicotine. And as part of my kind of role, I started editing this website.

[00:12:30] There was no, I guess, I don't know what the plan was. I think he was just like really big into fashion and he wanted to do more fashion. So I was like covering like fashion stories, like posting when Louis Vuitton did like a new campaign. And that's what I started doing. And then I left working for him and I was still freelancing a little bit. But then when I got pregnant, I couldn't freelance as a photographer anymore. I couldn't be carrying around all the equipment.

[00:13:00] So I went back to writing and writing is actually my first love. So the very first thing I ever wanted to be as a child was an author. But I had that dream in the past thinking, I can't write. I was like eight years old and I couldn't finish writing a novel. So I thought, oh, this isn't for me. But yeah, I started, I just started writing again for my own blog. This is when blogs were like a thing. And then off the back of that, I started getting opportunities to write for other blogs. So I wrote for Christian Today.

[00:13:29] I did like a column for Christian Today. I did a column for MTV News, like just very like small kind of things around specific topics. And then I was asked to be a contributor to Media Diversified. And then from there, I just started writing more for different places. And then when Black Ballad launched, I immediately started writing for Black Ballad. This is when Black Ballad was still a free blog. So I was writing for Black Ballad.

[00:13:56] And then it was actually off the back of writing for Black Ballad, an editor approached me and said, I like your writing. Have you ever considered writing a book? And I said, yes, of course I have. So I then started working on what would be Hope and Glory. And then around that time or not around that time, but in that process, I then also started working full time for Black Ballad as well. So it was a very circuitous path.

[00:14:24] But that's how I ended up as a editor at Black Ballad, but also as an author as well. Fantastic. And very rich because this is what I like. For authors, if you want to be an author, you'll be, in fact, it's a blessing to have the kind of background you came from. Because you can pick from, you can take from anywhere. It's like magpie. You can just take from there because you've got all the experience. So you're so blessed. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:14:53] In terms of your, because you've got your, these are the questions I normally ask later on in the interview, but I'm going to ask them now because I'll talk about the digital age and other kind of questions. So in terms of your creative process, how do you balance your creative process, your job as an editor and all that, the family life? How do you do it? It's not easy. It's not easy at all. The rhymes.

[00:15:23] Did you, I think there was some, I think Sean The Rhymes did a post on this. Did you? I don't know whether you saw it on Instagram. I don't think I saw it. Oh my God, go and see it. She was just talking about how, you finish and I'll tell you a little bit about what I said on the rhymes that did that on Instagram. It's worth watching. I was feeling so happy when I saw that. Go on then. So how do I do it? It's become easier as my kids have gotten older.

[00:15:48] So now there's, we have a, we, I try to have a very like strict structure. So they go to after school club three days a week. They have like football, they have all these different kinds of things. And it's literally just about trying to slot things in as a way. If I'm honest, obviously Black Ballad is my day job. That is the job that pays my bills. So the majority of the time when my kids are in school, I'm working on Black Ballad and that's my main focus.

[00:16:17] But when it comes to writing, I've started to find ways to like fit writing in other ways. So now one of the, one of the times I get the most writing done is when they're actually at football practice, which is an evening and there's two hours. And in between watching them play their matches, I have my latest manuscript printed out and bound into a wire bound document.

[00:16:42] And I'm just writing, editing as they're playing football, like how they take turns doing drills and take turns playing matches. So I'm watching them when it's their turn. When it's not their turn, I'm like quickly writing. And that gives me like two hours. And then also on the weekends, I try to slot stuff in. So after today, lovely conversation, I'm going to take them to the park. And while at the park, I'll probably get some more writing done. But it's just about trying to balance.

[00:17:10] I don't even think balance is the right word because it never quite feels like you're balancing. It always feels like there's some kind of missed weighing of the scale and I'm not doing enough at work. I'm not doing enough writing. I'm not paying enough attention to my children. You never feel like you've quite got everything the way that it should be. But it's just that now I just try to be very gracious in myself and just say, just do what you can. Just do what you can.

[00:17:38] And I give myself enough. I know some people are writing like a book a year, maybe even more. I know that for me, a book's going to take two years to write. That's just going to take two years because I've got a lot of stuff happening at the same time. So, yeah, I just try to be realistic and give myself grace and just fit it in when I can. And different seasons, there's like different kind of space.

[00:18:04] Sometimes when I'm coming towards the end of a book, I might actually take some time off work to like really finish it. My family health as well in terms of like childcare. Like there's times when I can just drop the kids with say my aunt and my uncle and they'll be with their cousins playing. And I know, OK, I've got an afternoon to really get some work done. But it's just, yeah, it's a juggle. It's a constant juggle. So, you know what? Yeah. So going to what Shonda Rhimes said.

[00:18:32] And if you're a mother out there, you've heard Jandela, it's not perfect. Don't try to make it perfect. Do your best. And don't beat yourself up. No, never. That happened to me. I used to beat myself up because I was just, oh my God, I was such an artist. I was an artist. I was working. I was the mother. I was, it was crazy. So Shonda Rhimes was talking about, she said, if, let's say I'm with my children.

[00:18:58] So, but Shonda Rhimes was talking about the fact that if she's somewhere in a meeting, that means that something else is not happening. That means that maybe she's not at a concert for her children. But the concert for her children, that means she's not at a meeting somewhere. So she's just saying that however it is, there's a lot somewhere. And then she's just doing the best that she can. I just loved it. I just went there and I listened to it. I've simplified it. But that's what she said.

[00:19:27] That there's something. It's not, you're not going to ever get it perfect. Something is lost. Yeah. So it's not perfect. And this is what it is for us. We just, we do it. And I really admire what you've done because you've liked the brilliant books. Before we even go into me asking about technology and things, let's talk about your books. Hope and Glory. I read Hope and Glory. Some of you that know me, maybe follow me on other medium.

[00:19:56] I review books when I can. And I always say that when I put it on my TikTok, that it's when I can. So when a book has touched me in one way or the other, I'm not reviewing it for anything else. If you come to me with a book, I might not likely answer you. I only review books that mean something to me. And Hope and Glory did that for me. So I'm not going to talk much about it because then I'm going to tell you, go and watch my TikTok on it and get to talk. So Janela wrote Hope and Glory.

[00:20:26] And it's, I would say, in a British, Nigerian, Black British community in Peckham. That's where it's said. But that's just the starting point of this fantastic book. I'm not going to say no more. And she's written all that we've got. That I have not had time to read. But I just started it. Just started the first page. And I know that I'm definitely going to read it. So that's just the beginning of it.

[00:20:56] And I know this one I want to read. So having not read all that we've got, I can't say much about it, but I can't ask a question. Because I have a feeling that both books are different. So tell us about, in terms of writing those books, why the difference? I'm not questioning you.

[00:21:19] I'm just curious about the kind of books and how you intend to proceed with that in terms of your author journey. You'll be writing different books and different stories. Yeah. Why are they different? I don't know. I feel like when it comes to writing books, I just have a story. And even the book that I'm working on now is very different to both of them. And I think that I just start off with an idea. It'll be a random idea.

[00:21:47] So with Hope and Glory, it was starting off as me being in my mid-20s and feeling like my life was not coming together. So then I just started writing a story about a young woman in her mid-20s whose life doesn't really seem to be where she wants it to be. And then adding in the complication of family and all of the dramas of being a British Nigerian child to Nigerian parents. And that was just a story that I wanted to tell because I've never seen a story like that.

[00:22:17] I've never seen a story that was really so British Nigerian. You have a lot of Nigerian stories. You have a lot of Black British stories. But I wanted a story that was like British Nigerian. They wanted a definition. Actually, no, let me not say that because someone would be like, oh, that's not my Nigerian story. Okay, fair. But if you wanted a good example of what a type of British Nigerian story is, I wanted to write that book. So that was Hope and Glory.

[00:22:42] And then with all that we've got, I think it came from a very different place where it sent us two young women who are like very isolated. There's a young 15-year-old girl called Abby whose mom's always working. So she's home alone a lot. And there's Mimi who's a young mother who's had to leave her family because of all of the speculation and controversy around becoming a mother at such a young age.

[00:23:07] So with that, I wanted to write a story about community and about what community looks like now when we have so much fracturing. We have so much like discord. It feels like the fabric of society has been really like damaged by so many different things, by austerity, by just a breakdown in trust. So I wanted to write a story about two young women who find each other.

[00:23:29] They find their community and ultimately they like save themselves because I think it's really important for young women to have that agency. I didn't feel like I had that agency as a teenager and I really wanted to give my characters that agency. So all that we've got was a bit different because I think I was coming at it from a place of there's a bigger story that I want to explore through the lens of these two young women. I'm touching on topics that, again, I haven't really seen spoken about, especially from the point of view of young women.

[00:23:59] A lot of the things that the book touches on in terms of like gangs and police brutality and all that is often from the lens of young men, which is understandable. But I wanted to show how these things also impact young women in our community. That's interesting. I love that. So I'm not going to ask about your next book yet because I saw you give us a hint of what you think, what you say you might be writing.

[00:24:26] But I want to go into writing and editing in the digital age. I want to ask about how technology has changed the way you write and edit and collaborate with others because Black Ballad is a platform and I would say it's a digital platform. And then I love the idea that you come together, the community comes together, you're doing that with the community. So how is that? How does like, how is that working in terms of how you work?

[00:24:56] Yeah, so it is a digital platform, like first and originally it was a digital platform. And that was really because with the advent of independent publishing and digital media, the barrier to entry was lower. So where there was a lot of writers who were not being represented in mainstream publishing, Black women just being one of those like demographics. Yeah.

[00:25:19] Black Ballad presents the opportunity for Black journalists, Black writers of various different experiences and ages to really have their work published and put in front of an audience. So obviously digital features heavily in that because it did, as I say, it lowered the barrier to entry. It made it so much easier to even just connect through social media. We found so many of our writers through social media and we still do to this day. That is how we started.

[00:25:45] But then there is a need for us to be in person as well. And so we realized that on one hand, in order to fund Black Ballad and in order to pay our writers, we needed to have some kind of revenue model. And that came through launching with a paywall or relaunching with a paywall and kind of a membership base. And that was in 2017.

[00:26:08] So that was before a lot of the mainstream publications started considering paywalls and membership kind of schemes. We were told originally in the beginning that it wasn't going to work. No one would pay for it. Black women wouldn't pay for it. Like the model wasn't going to work. But thankfully, we are still here in 2025. Not that it's been easy at all because media as a whole, the landscape is changing so rapidly.

[00:26:37] People have tried paywalls. They've dropped paywalls. People are trying to navigate what it means, like the advent of AI. Even just the cost of living crisis is also just affecting our membership base in terms of what they can afford and what they can't afford. But there is still a need for Black Ballad. There is still a need for our community. And now we have events, in-person events as well, which you feel adds even more value to the membership. So vibrance as well. Yeah.

[00:27:04] So we can meet together, chop up what we discuss online. We bring it in person. We just expand that conversation outward. And ultimately, we are now, we are a lifestyle platform. We're a lifestyle brand that is for Black women because it's not just about the publishing. It is about the events. It is about the community aspect as well. That's fantastic. And I think you've actually answered the question because I was going to say, do you think digital platforms have democratized publishing for Black writers?

[00:27:34] And I believe so because you've said low entry level in Google. So what tools or software do you use in your creative and editorial work? Seriously. I mean it. So when I'm working with writers, a lot of the time it's like Google Docs. So we can work in the same document together. I feel like it's not very high tech. It's like Google Docs. It's that's like mainly it. Obviously, we do a lot of meetings online, even as a team.

[00:28:03] So we do work as a team. We're in the office one day a week, but the rest of the time we are remote. So there's a lot of communication happening through Slack, through emails, through Google Meet, through Zoom. So there's just that constant need to be connected. And then also, yeah, we work in like anything that can allow more than one person to work at the same time. So whether that's Canva or whether that's Google Docs, just to keep the collaboration going.

[00:28:31] Because one thing that you do miss when you are working remote is being in that atmosphere where people can just chip in. You can just stop by someone's desk. You can get like real time feedback. So it's good to just keep connected in whatever way we can. Yeah, that's fantastic. And so what road you, because social media is changing. We've got, we are in changing times now. That's four points. TikTok went out for a day in the US. I think a day or I can't accept some day.

[00:29:01] How many days it went out from the US is back. But so we know that social media is not a completely reliable means of, it's a fantastic way to reach people. But cannot rely on it completely because it can just go out. The carpet can be pulled from under your feet. But you've used it in a way to amplify your voice to your, the voices of black writers. So how do you see social media? How does it play within how you work in Black Ballad?

[00:29:31] Social media is important as a discovery tool. But what we're finding, and I think a lot of publishers are finding the same thing, is that as a discovery tool, it's proving harder. It's now more like a pay to play. Masphere, Facebook, X, Instagram, Meta. They're not trying to give you the reach that you once organically could develop from just having amazing content and just being consistent.

[00:29:59] Like that reach is no longer available freely. Even just in terms of distributing our articles as well. Like we know that social media is like throttling publisher distribution. They want people to stay within their kind of siloed environment. They don't really want to share traffic. So I feel like we're really at a turning point. And what the future looks like is still a little bit up for grabs.

[00:30:26] But I think social media is still really important because it is one of the ways that we can immediately reach kind of our loyal audience and our loyal followers. And it still does provide a good discovery tool. So I know that I've met certain people at Black Ballad events who discovered us through like a TikTok video or through something else. But I don't think that publishers can rely on social media anymore because, yeah,

[00:30:52] I feel like social media is something that is almost turning into kind of like sub-communities within communities. So if you want to build a platform on social media and you want to be social media first, then that's great. But then as we see when TikTok goes dark, when Instagram goes down, when the algorithm changes or when founders decide that they want to work a new revenue model, you're like held for ransom.

[00:31:21] So it is really important to try and develop and have your audience elsewhere, across multiple platforms, ideally, but elsewhere. Easier said than done. But obviously at Black Ballad, we have over the years, we've developed a really strong mailing list who weekly get our emails. So that's a roundup of the articles that have been published, if you're a member, or just like the weekly founder's letter from Toby, who's our founder or one of our co-founders.

[00:31:49] So that is a good way of maintaining relationship as well. And it's the slow and steady way because it's not like you can't go viral on the email list. It's not like, oh, I'm going to go viral on TikTok and gain like 10,000 followers in the space of a few days. You can't go viral with email. But all you can do is be consistent and just consistently provide something of value that hopefully your champions, your members, your followers will see.

[00:32:19] This is worth it. So now I'm going to share. And one thing that we're also seeing is that a lot of private sharing as well, whether it's private WhatsApp group, private other groups online. So we can't rely on social media as like a megaphone anymore in the same way. It's more about working out how to connect individually with people who are within our community and hopefully will then share or invite a friend along or like champion us within their smaller groups.

[00:32:49] But that is the way forward for now anyway, until something else changes. Makes sense. So do you see, have you delved into AI or other kind of AI itself? And how do you influence Black Ballard in how you're creating the future? Yeah. So I think in terms of what we use AI for, I think, to be honest, it's for a lot of the grunt work.

[00:33:14] So a lot of the things that, whether it's like quickly analyzing data that we've collected or whether it's, there's some like really menial editorial tasks, like creating sharing links that you can use AI to set, you can program AI to do these automated tasks. Are you using any agents yet? AI agents, what do you mean? That's exactly what you mean. Oh, okay. Maybe that's, see, I'm. Like automated system. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:43] Yeah. So like in very like small areas, we do have like AI automation allow us to just do these menial tasks much quicker. So it's proven useful in that aspect. I think there's a bigger fear about AI just in terms of as a generative tool, in terms of writing. I have seen writers submit pitches, which you can tell work done using AI. And it's funny when people say, how can you tell?

[00:34:11] I mean, there is an, there's just an uncanny. There's a like general uncanniness to the writing that you're just like. It's too smooth. Too, too, no, it's just, yeah. It's too, it's like too sanitized. It's too generalized. It's like very much almost like paint by numbers in that kind of aspect.

[00:34:34] So that is a concern, I think, just in terms of where people just start thinking for themselves and they try and use AI to shortcut the creative work in ways that is not really beneficial to anyone. So as a tool to do grunt work, as a tool to do automated tasks, AI, amazing. But when we're talking about original thought and creative production, I don't think AI is really going to,

[00:35:01] it's going to surpass the quality, the insight, the nuance needed from humans. I don't think that's going to happen. But there is a fear and a fear that I have and I'm seeing other people echo just the fact that in the kind of like gold rush for AI, it's going to weaken the industry or it's going to undermine the industry, at least in like the medium term. The way that I think about it, there's like the short term, there's the medium and there's the long term. So actually, sorry, I said the medium term, I meant the short.

[00:35:30] In the short term, I think it will undermine the industry. We are seeing other publications who are now using AI to write articles with human kind of editors to go over it, which obviously affects just the job pool for kind of like new writers who are like trying to get their start and maybe a big publication by just writing those small entertainment articles or those small kind of articles.

[00:35:56] Now, people are using AI to do that and getting an editor to overlook it, which I think that is quite damaging. Long term, I think that this rush for AI could potentially cause bigger issues down the road, which some people are talking about, but I don't think a lot of people are taking seriously. But medium term, I think the ingenuity, the insight, the nuance, the creativity that makes up human like creative production is always going to be there.

[00:36:26] It's just there's going to be a rocky road where people are trying to cut corners. People are trying to save class. People are trying to rush to like profit using AI and bypassing humans because they see humans as like an expensive resource. So you were talking about the kind of issues, I think. Do you want to talk about that? What issues do you see for the future? I'm just kidding. I feel like I sound like a conspiracy theorist.

[00:36:55] I think that there's obviously concerns around just like misinformation and just digital literacy. I think there's even without kind of the advent of AI, there's always been a concern around like misinformation and like fake generated images and all this kind of stuff.

[00:37:19] And I think that as a whole, it feels like our digital literacy as a society is going down. People are just being spoon fed information. They're taking information for granted. On the internet, critical thinking seems to be a severely undervalued resource. And I think that is so important. And I think that it doesn't bode well for democracy.

[00:37:43] It doesn't bode well for the future of just cohesive societies that work together when we are not thinking, when we are just taking things at face value. There's a lot of room for manipulation. I think there's also the environmental aspect as well. Well, someone said that they thought AI would be the thing that will be cleaning the oceans of microplastics and like dealing with that.

[00:38:08] Not like people trying to work out how to get AI to write books or to write poetry or to write film scripts and that kind of thing. I think that there is a concern about just the environmental impact, just in terms of the servers, in terms of the processing, in terms of all of that kind of stuff.

[00:38:27] And also, what does it mean for society when creative labor made by humans is not valued in the sense where the language learning models that make up AI have been trained on human produced stuff, which has not been paid for, which has not been valued, which has just been stolen wholesale to train AI.

[00:38:51] The human production is not valued, but somehow we want AI to be. I saw news of a new publishing imprint that was going to use AI to rush out books. Yeah. Like why? Thousands of books, yeah. Thousands and thousands. Why are thousands and thousands of AI written books more valued than the creative input of the humans that train their AI? Because those creatives have not been compensated.

[00:39:21] They have not been remunerated. While the people who are making these large language learning models are like making billions and trillions and squillions. So I think that is quite a scary place where human labor is so undervalued. And AI labor, which wouldn't exist without the input of human labor, is so overvalued. Even just in terms of like when you hear about the people who are actively training AI or in terms of like maybe correcting,

[00:39:52] they're like essentially digital sweatshops somewhere in the global south where people are like constantly cleaning data, going over. It's all a bit depressing. Logical issue there. So what I would just point out again, because we talk about AI, but the aspects of AI that we're talking about is generative AI. Sorry, generative AI. No, not even you correcting you. I'm just saying that for the audience or the listeners.

[00:40:18] So I did an intro to this that you were not a part of, talking about what just came out in China. I don't know if you've heard. Yeah, deep sea. Well, this is all generative AI now. There is a place for AI itself, the technology in the medical world, in sustainability and so many areas. In sustainability, it's a bit dodgy because of all the kind of energy that it's going to be.

[00:40:42] But in other aspects, like medical field and other kind of fields, it's going to be life changing. Another thing I thought about is that because we're in the West, we're not even aware of the impact of what AI can do in other communities. For example, languages. Languages have not been like I listened to a lady recently who is doing research in many about, I don't know how many languages.

[00:41:08] She's talked about the languages in the world and they're trying to make AI be able to generative AI, to be able to generate those languages. And even the context of languages, working with experts around the world. So there's going to be this fantastic use cases for AI that would help those who don't have the, what do they call it? The rich or isolated for one reason or the other and don't have even education.

[00:41:35] So there's a use case, but generative AI is the one that we're talking about that has done all these other things. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll just say, I am excited for the possibilities of AI. As I said, as a tool, it has made my life a lot easier. As I said, with some of the grunt work that takes place behind the scenes.

[00:41:57] And I think that there is such an amazing opportunity, again, to lower the barrier of entry across so many different industries. Not to get AI to write books, not to get AI to create art, but to just allow people like accessibility. As you said, language, there's just so much potential. But I don't know, I just feel like humans ruin everything. We're always just rushing to profit.

[00:42:24] We're always rushing to almost like how we can exploit each other in the quickest and easiest way, rather than just think, how can we partner together and use this amazing technology as a tool to better all of our lives? Not just make a few people trillionaires. That's the same. And another thing I was saying to creatives, I did an episode before this and I was talking to Payne that, look, try and have a voice in this because these people are creating this outside of the creatives.

[00:42:54] So you're creating something for creatives. You're creating something out there that you've used all of our data out there and you're not even consulting us. So for technologies now, we have to have a voice. You have to come to us and say, what do you think? Do the research with us in mind. So that's what I say. So if you have, as a creator, you have any opportunity to be at the table with any of the startups or any of the technology, make sure you have a voice.

[00:43:21] We can't bury our heads in the sand because this technology is progressing. So we really need to have a say in what's happening so that they can consult us and not create this and just hand it over to us and make their, like you said, squillions. And if you have a company, it's community. Create your own community. Start creating your own community. Start being in touch. Look at what Jendela said in terms of Black Ballad. Because those communities are the ones that are going to keep you going in this mad world now of AI, where people are looking for shortcuts.

[00:43:51] Community will follow you. The question, so let me look for my next questions. Yeah, you've actually answered so many questions. What advice would you give to younger people starting out? Oh, wow. I think that you have to really be immersed in the world that you want to enter. In terms of if you want to be a writer, you have to read. You have to read widely. If you want to be an editor, you have to read widely.

[00:44:21] Read loads of different magazines, publications. You have to know what the landscape is, especially because the landscape changes so quickly, so often. So I'd definitely say immerse yourself in novels. Immerse yourself in, if that's the word you want to enter, immerse yourself in the world of novels. If it's non-fiction, the world of non-fiction. If it's magazine journalism or newspaper journalism, you really need to immerse yourself in that world.

[00:44:46] And one thing that I will say is that I'm not anti-university, but I feel like even when I was in university, which is over 10 years ago now, I don't think we left being prepared for the world that was out there. So while I'm not anti-university at all, if you want to go, but you also need to also be self-educating as well.

[00:45:09] So you need to be keeping an eye on what's happening outside in the real world, as well as taking in as much as you can and using the opportunity for having this time with your tutors, having access to... I miss my uni library so much. Like the university library was an amazing resource. So just, you have to really become an expert by taking as much as you can from so many different places, because unfortunately, the landscape is changing, things are becoming more competitive.

[00:45:38] And even like from my position now as someone who looks for writers and is in a position to commission others, like we really want people who know their stuff. It's not just enough to like, oh, I can write. That is great. Do you know what you're writing about? Can you, do you have the insight and kind of the knowledge and like that, or even just the access to expertise if you yourself is not an expert that can really bring an edge?

[00:46:03] It is a really competitive world, but if you love what you're doing and you have a real respect for what you're doing and you immerse yourself, like you will be able to forge a path. Another thing I'll say, be open to how that path might play out. As you can see from my journey, it was not linear at all. I always say Black Ballad is the dream job I never knew that I wanted.

[00:46:28] I would have never, there's not one time when I said, oh, I want to be an editor working in like media. That never, ever crossed my mind. Yet here I am and I'm enjoying it. So I'll say definitely be open to where the path might take you. And last thing, the last thing I'll say is when you're young and you have less to lose, I'd be quicker to say yes to certain things, quicker to say yes to certain opportunities,

[00:46:55] because you just never know where this opportunity might take. You never know what you might find yourself doing that you enjoy. Like who knew that me saying yes to editing this like fashion and culture website for my old employer when I was a photography assistant would almost be the bedrock for the job that I do now. Like who knew? That's fantastic. And what advice would you give a younger Jandela? Oh my gosh.

[00:47:26] What are the do's and don'ts? The do's and you know what I would say to a younger Jandela? I would say don't undersell yourself in everything. I feel like I really had a fear about asking for money or asking for payment or increasing of payment. I always felt like almost so grateful to be there that I didn't want to say,

[00:47:55] oh actually I'm, if it's a freelance job, my fee is this. Or actually I need to charge you that. Or actually can I get expenses on a job repaid because you're not paying, this is an experience for me, you're not paying me, yes. But can you at least pay my expenses because I'm helping you? Just things like that. Don't undersell yourself. I was too afraid when it came to money and I think it, I really shot myself in the foot. So I would definitely say the worst they can say is no. Ask for it.

[00:48:25] The worst they can say is no. And if you're, I think I was also scared about seeing as like too pushy or too demanding or whatever. Life is too short for all of that. Life is definitely too short. And look at the people that you're following as well. So whoever you're following, I can't remember who it was. I think, was it Yvonne or J? Was it Yvonne? Yeah, Yvonne, yeah. Was it Yvonne? No, it's not Yvonne. What's the other one? Lovie Ajayi was talking about being underpaid. Yeah. It was a figure that was like, what?

[00:48:55] Is that underpayment? Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Oh my God. If she say she's underpaid and this amount is like a big amount, then you are being underpaid. Then, of course, there's a starting point before you get to her level. So what are the kind of hobbies that you're passionate about aside from your writing and everything that you love? I need new hobbies. It's so interesting.

[00:49:24] When you are in a position that you turn the thing that you love into a job, whether that's a day job or even like writing, I find that I need new hobbies because all of my hobbies are related to. So I can't even say that I can say, oh, reading is a hobby, but reading is also part of my job. So is it really a hobby? So yeah, what I do love actually, and I've been getting more into watching independent film a lot. Yeah, I've got a movie subscription.

[00:49:53] So I've been just watching a lot of random independent film that I think is also just juicing up my mind and my like inspiration. So I'm really enjoying that. But yeah, I need, I learn languages as a hobby, sounds a little bit nerdy, but I love to learn different languages. I'm trying with my Yoruba with, with C. No, no. Just like I want to eat.

[00:50:23] Oh, that's it. Why? I'm going to encourage someone. I'm going to see you and say, oh my God. Okay. More food, J. What do you want to eat? Yeah, that's it. More food, J. What's he eat? Oh, look at that. Look, if Jendela can do it. If Jendela can do it, you can do it too. If Jendela can do it, you can do it too. Look, Jendela can be shy and all that. Look, I'm so shy. I'm so shy. I'm so shy. I'm so shy. And you know what?

[00:50:47] I think it's also tied into just that feeling of, I just need to, one thing I would tell my younger self as well is that you need to release all of the fears around how people perceive you. Like my issue with learning Yoruba is that I feel like I should know it by now. So I feel very embarrassed that I don't speak Yoruba and I'm embarrassed of sounding silly and all that kind of stuff. So like all of that I need to get rid of. But yeah, I like, yeah, I've been learning Yoruba, also French because I did study French

[00:51:15] up until A-level and then I just stopped. So I'm trying to like get back into like my French speaking and reading and understanding. Yeah, maybe language learning, some independent films. I want to start painting again, but yeah. Like I'm so, I'm chuffed. So now we're going to, I'm going to ask you two more questions and I'm wrapping it up. So in terms of someone out there that you really admire, deeply admire, do you have anybody,

[00:51:44] I know you might have several people, but do you have anybody like, oh my God, I like this person and I look up to them? I think Issa Rae. As, so it's funny, I remember I first started watching Awkward Black Girl, her web series when I was in university. So I feel like I've really kind of grown with like, I was there for Awkward Black Girl and now seeing her as this industry powerhouse with her own production companies, her own businesses

[00:52:14] across various different industries. It is inspiring. And yeah, and not that I see myself producing TV or film or anything like that. I just really admire someone who again charted her own path. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. If you want to. Seriously. I'm putting it out there. I'm putting it out there. TV, film. I would definitely, I would love to move into film and TV in terms of writing. Definitely.

[00:52:45] I'm definitely going to. So. Yeah. Out there. Out there. And comic. Everything. Nothing is. Yeah. Up the table. That's good. So it's a ray. Yeah. Now, your next work as an author, what's in there for us? What should we be expecting? Expecting and expecting. I'm half joking. I'm actually working on something that's a bit more in your territory. I'm working on a thriller of sorts.

[00:53:14] It's a challenge. It is definitely a challenge. And I always feel like, why do I always, I feel like each book I write is like such a, almost like step change compared to the last one, which is good. But then at the same time, I'm like, oh, why do I do this to myself? Why do I not just try and do what I did before just slightly better or slightly different? So yeah, it's actually a thriller. And I've been working on it for a while.

[00:53:43] I'm working on a new draft that hopefully I'm going to send my agent before Easter, putting it out there. So everyone has to hold me accountable. But yeah, it's different because there's a male main character. I've written about a lot of women. Now I'm writing about a male main character. It's, as I said, it's a thriller. And also it's set within an evening. So it's very, my God. I really, it's set within the evening. Mel main character.

[00:54:12] And also there's six different perspectives. So I'm trying to do a lot. As people always say, I do. I try to do too much in my books. This is me again, trying to do a lot. So. Fantastic. I'm excited. I'm really excited about it. Do you know something? We, at the end of the podcast, where can people reach you? I know some people, a lot of people would know you and some people might not know you. So where can they reach you?

[00:54:39] So I'm on Instagram threads, just Jendela. Also, I'm just, I'm on TikTok sometimes. Jendela, the first. Sometimes I'm on TikTok. But Jendela.co.uk. And you can find out where I'm, where I will currently be. Thank you so much for coming to Talking Tech with Creative Podcast. We really appreciate you. I love this interview. I can't wait to publish it. Thank you so much.

[00:55:08] And thank you. We've had a great time. We had a fantastic time. I love it. I love it. Thank you. Thank you.