AI, Authorship And The Human Creative - ep 35

[00:00:13] Hi everyone, welcome to Talking Tech With Creatives where we explore how technology is changing the way we create, work and connect and what it means for the humans behind it. I'm Stella Oni and this week I'm doing a solo episode on creativity, technology, authorship and being human.

[00:00:41] I've now had conversations with people working across very different creative and professional worlds. Writers, musicians, entrepreneurs, publishing professionals, technologies and other creatives. I wanted to stop for a moment and reflect on some of the patterns I've noticed.

[00:01:07] Although the guests and industries are different, some of the same questions keep appearing. Technology is changing how we create and how work reaches people. Gen.AI has made these changes rapid but also brought serious controversy.

[00:01:27] Gen.AI understood, particularly how huge amounts of creative work we use to train large language models without the creatives knowledge permission or compensation. The central question for the episode is, as technology becomes increasingly capable, where does the human sit in the creative process so i hope you're going to hear me out because i've

[00:01:56] got a long one to go into and I'm going to focus this in the writing world so I'm going to use the writing world as an example but i'll be looking at different industries so one thing the podcast has reinforced for me that creativity isn't confined to the traditional arts we always

[00:02:20] think about writers musicians artists filmmakers and designers when we talk about creatives but creativity also exists in entrepreneurship business technology problem solving innovation and building

[00:02:40] something that did not previously exist talks aroturi of the baby cut shop who is going to be coming after this podcast in a few weeks has built a business around bespoke nursery furnishing and interiors her work brings together creativity design entrepreneurship and business and that is what

[00:03:07] talking to every creative podcast means to me so technology often amplifies what already exists what i've noticed across these conversations is that people tend to begin with an idea expertise or a problem they want to solve then technology becomes an enabler and this is particularly

[00:03:32] interesting with ai what happens when powerful ai tools are put into the hands of someone who already understands their craft and so expertise still matters and when i talk about who already understands their craft i'm not talking about the craft of writing i'm talking about their craft in different

[00:03:55] different sectors different industries not fiction not genii and fiction i'm not talking about that someone still needs to look at what the technology produces and decide is this right does it achieve what it intended i can connect this my own professional experience as a technical writer ai can help with reviewing checking testing but human

[00:04:25] human judgment is still required so generally something isn't the same as knowing whether it's good but i have to say that for what is coming in the future where human judgment will come in might change from what it is now so there will be changes coming to jobs and what it means to have human judgment that is my personal opinion so let's look at it

[00:04:55] efficiency and efficiency technology technology allows us to produce more faster and often more cheaply but faster doesn't mean better in my conversation with kemi obafemi which was the podcast before this we talked about she's of kemi obafemi of kemi music who sang african woman we discussed music african identity technology and commercial pressures

[00:05:25] it raises the larger question about creative work what happens to individual voice when technology makes production easier sometimes experimentation failure and struggling with an idea part of creating something distinctive so if efficiency becomes the main objective what happens to originality and individual voice i know that kemi for example she believes in her own authentic and original voice

[00:05:55] she uses she uses ai technology to quickly bring that voice to live with i don't know much about music when it comes to music but she brings it to live in the sense that she's able to use the different production tools that she would have maybe she would have required a kind of production crew to do she's able to quickly do with ai and then she shares it with

[00:06:26] product manager so that kind of product manager so that kind of speed up that process for her because she's able to bring her music to life quickly because she's able to bring her music to life quickly because she's using ai technology and her own voice so then let's talk about democratization of creativity and this is one of the great positives of technology musicians can't really appreciate it

[00:06:50] musicians can release music without necessarily having a major label writers can publish independently writers can publish independently podcasters like me can create and reach audience and around the world without needing the backing of a traditional media organization creative entrepreneurs can reach customers directly so traditional gatekeepers have become less powerful in many areas

[00:07:17] people who do not have access can now create and dispute their work but i must say before i go on to my mess that even though those traditional gatekeepers have gone we now have this technology in the hands of a few distribution is now in the hands of a few and i'll use amazon as an example

[00:07:42] a lot of the other digital gatekeepers have gone we now have this technology in the hands of a few and i'll use amazon as an example of the digital gatekeepers

[00:08:12] source authors especially non- исп inverses i don't want to go into all the different discussions around that but tim feris has a blog on this and yes so go listen to tim feris and what he said

[00:08:37] In my interview with Joshua Talent, and now I want to talk about discoverability. Joshua Talent or Firebrand Technology is coming on the podcast in a few weeks' time. We discuss metadata, search algorithms, SEO slash Geo, SEO, search engine optimization, Geo, general engine optimization, AI, and discoverability.

[00:09:06] Someone can produce excellent creative work and be virtually invisible. Creators now need some understanding of the technological ecosystem surrounding their work. Perhaps we've moved from asking, can I make this, to how will people find me? In an environment overflowing with content, maybe voice, authenticity, and cultural perspective

[00:09:34] plus human connection becomes even, in fact, it's not even maybe. It becomes even more valuable. That is my opinion. So let's talk about writing. I'm a writer, so I can't have a serious conversation about creativity and AI without looking at what's happening in publishing. Over a short period, several writers have become caught up in controversies concerning alleged gen AI use.

[00:10:00] It's important not to present these as four identical cases or to decide whether an individual author did or didn't use AI. There are allegations, denial, investigations, and very different outcomes. The differences between the cases make the subjects interesting. But the common thread is that these are writers of color.

[00:10:26] Publishers appear to have a growing problem around trust, authenticity, and how authorship can be established. So let me go through the four authors that, you know, these controversies surrounded. I want to start with Mia Ballard, which was a few months back. She wrote Shy Girl. And it was originally self-published and then acquired by Hachette.

[00:10:53] Questions were raised about possible gen AI use. Hachette investigated and they then subsequently cancelled all publishing plans. Mia Ballard denied knowingly using AI to write the novel and said AI-generated material had been introduced by an editor she hired.

[00:11:18] So when several people work on a manuscript, who is responsible for AI-generated material? The author, a freelance editor, the publisher, and what checks should exist? Now I want to talk about Jamil Nazir, who wrote the story The Serpent in the Grove. The Serpent in the Grove became part of the controversies surrounding the Commonwealth Short Story Prize.

[00:11:46] Questions were raised about possible AI-gen writing. Jamil Nazir denied using AI. The Commonwealth Foundation reviewed the situation and ultimately continued to back the writers. And Nazir went on to win the prize.

[00:12:08] The controversies nevertheless had wider consequences around the publishing partnership with Granta. So it raises a completely different question. How reliable is AI detection? What happens when someone is publicly accused and subsequently cleared? Can the reputational damage ever completely disappear?

[00:12:34] What evidence should be required before accusations are made? H.M. Wolf, Daggermouth, as the third author. Daggermouth began in independent publishing and became highly successful before traditional publishing rights were acquired. Researchers later raised allegations or questions about substantial AI-generated material.

[00:13:05] H.M. Wolf disputed the allegation and the publisher has continued with publication. This provides an interesting contrast with Shy Girl. Why does one publisher withdraw a book while another continues publishing? What evidence is sufficient? Are publishers working to the same standards? Is there even an agreed industry specification definition of unacceptable AI use?

[00:13:35] Then I'm going to talk about Jerry Falladay, Call Me, I'll Hide the Body. An intriguing title. This case is interesting to me because it involves crime fiction, my own genre. The manuscript attracted extraordinary publishing interest and a major offer.

[00:13:55] His agent then withdrew the manuscript because they said they could no longer authenticate its development. Jerry Falladay has denied using AI to write the novel. He has also raised the question of racial bias in the scrutiny he received.

[00:14:16] Are writers eventually going to have to prove not only that they wrote a book, but how they wrote it? Would they need to produce drafts, notes, version histories, research records, earlier manuscript files, emails with editors? Is creative audit trail going to become part of being a professional writer? And I want to talk about the uncomfortable question about race.

[00:14:47] Several writers at the center of prominent recent AI authorship controversies have been black writers or writers of color. Jerry Falladay himself has raised the question of racial bias. So who gets suspected? Could certain writing voices or styles become more vulnerable to suspicion?

[00:15:14] What happens to writers using different forms of English, syntax, cultural references or rhythms? Could attempts to define what human writing looks like result in making a privilege of particular kinds of writing? At the same time, publishers have a legitimate responsibility to investigate credible concerns about AI-generated manuscripts.

[00:15:42] How do we protect creative integrity without creating a witch hunt? So four cases, different outcomes. Mia Ballard with Shy Girl, the publisher withdraws. Jamil Nazir, the serpent in the grove. There was an investigation and the organization backed the writer. H.M. Wolf, Daggermouth, allegations disputed and publisher continues publishing.

[00:16:12] Jerry Falladay, call me I'll hide the body. The agents withdraw after saying they cannot authenticate the manuscript's development. But all of these stories were given prominent editorial coverage around the world. So the story isn't simply writers are using AI.

[00:16:35] The interesting question is, does publishing have an agreed way of determining what constitutes unacceptable AI use? And how can it be proved fairly? What counts as AI use? This is something I think writers and publishers are trying to work through. Is it using AI for research? Brainstobbing? Asking questions about plots?

[00:17:04] Structural analysis, grammar checking, copywriting, rewriting a sentence, generating a paragraph, generating scenes, generating entire chapters. They're not equivalent. Where does assistance end and authorship begin? Do writers, publishers and readers agree? Because these are questions that we have to ask.

[00:17:33] Should AI use be disclosed? If so, what level of use requires disclosure? So what can writers actually do? After talking about these controversies, I don't want to leave the impression that writers can only become angry, frightened or overwhelmed by what is happening with Gen AI. There's a great deal of advocacy happening on our behalf.

[00:17:57] Here in the UK, the Society of Authors, whose board I sit on, is actively campaigning around authors' rights and Gen AI. It's also launched Human Authors, which allows qualifying books to carry a mark identifying them as Human Authored.

[00:18:20] There's also ALCS, the Author Licensing and Collecting Society, which represents authors' interests around licensing and remuneration. The important principles for me are consent, licensing and compensation. If authors' copyrighted work has value for the development of AI systems and an author chooses to allow their work to be licensed for that purpose,

[00:18:48] then the author should be part of that decision and should be compensated for the value of their work. And this isn't only a UK conversation. In the USA, the Authors Guild is advocating around many of the same issues, including copyright consent, licensing and compensation for authors. And there will be organizations doing similar work around the world.

[00:19:16] So wherever you're listening from, find authors' organizations, writers' association or collective society in your own country. Find out what they're doing around AI. Understand what rights you have. Read the guidance. Pay attention to what you're agreeing to in publishing another contract.

[00:19:34] And all the ones I've been talking about so far are what they call traditional publishing, which is you go through a major publishing house or you go through independent publishers, maybe independent presses where someone does the publishing of your work for you without remuneration. They're your publisher and you get royalty. You get royalties from those publishers. So I'm not even talking about self-published work now at all.

[00:20:03] I'm talking about that internal process that writers go through with trad publishing. For independent authors, organizations such as Alliance of Independent Authors, Ally, also provide extensive information and support. And you can find knowledgeable people who are following these changes. I listen to conversations and podcasts.

[00:20:30] As I listen to The Creative Pen, hosted by Jonah Pen. I attend webinars. I'm always reading, always asking questions. And I will say, do the same. Attend webinars. Read. Ask questions. And build a community around yourself. I don't even think every writer has to read the same conclusions about Gen AI. Some writers may decide they want nothing to do with it.

[00:21:00] Some may use it for administrative or business purposes or not for their own creative writing. Others may decide they want to use Gen AI much more extensively. Those are choices writers will have to make. While also understanding that publishers, readers and professional organizations may have their own expectations about disclosure and acceptable use.

[00:21:26] What I don't think writers should do is simply feel powerless. I say get informed, know your rights, find your community and make choices about where you want technology to sit within your own creative practice. This also comes back to the problem of noise that I mentioned earlier. As more content is produced, community becomes increasingly important.

[00:21:57] Build relationships with readers. Connect with other writers. Join professional organizations. Develop your mailing list at your own audience. Understand how the publishing landscape is changing. Technology may help people discover your work. But community gives people a reason to stay with you. So my own relationship with technology and creativity. Let's discuss that. I occupy both worlds.

[00:22:26] I'm a fiction writer, technical writer, lecturer, podcaster and speaker. I use technology extensively in my day job and in producing my podcast and speeding up a lot of my processes. And I can see great benefits. But I also make choices about where I want my own boundaries to sit. Fiction is important to me. Writing involves a lot of things.

[00:22:55] The fight with a first draft is something to behold. I always want to cry when I write my first draft. It's so rubbish. And then I start feeling better after a third draft. Especially when it has come back with comments from the publisher. And I feel maybe I have a novel after incorporating dev edits, which is developmental edits might be.

[00:23:21] Feedback from the publisher wanting some changes in the plots, in the way the plot works. So that's if it is required. And also knowing that I have an editorial process waiting for me. The line edits, the copy edits. That process has value for me. So the human brings judgment, taste, lived experience, the ability to decide what matters.

[00:23:47] So me following my creative process, it coming from me, that is very important to me. I use tools for edits. I would edit with tools. But that creative aspect, where that comes from, that's for me. A hundred percent. And I love it. It's painful, but I love it.

[00:24:13] What I've learned from talking tech with creatives so far. Technology can democratize creativity, remove barriers, amplify existing expertise, help creative people become more productive. But greater access also creates noise. Discoverability becomes more difficult. Trust and authenticity will be important. Human enjoyment becomes premium.

[00:24:42] Creativity also exists far beyond the conventional creative industries. We humans still must decide who we are within this powerful technology. That is why I'm so passionate about the ethics of AI, the humanist perspective, and the fight for the rights of creatives.

[00:25:03] Government policies and interventions and how they direct the AI companies. That's very important to me. AI is becoming a trillion dollar industry. But we must ask, who gains the most and who stands to lose?

[00:25:26] Writers, artists, musicians, and other creatives have helped produce the work and knowledge on which much of this technology has been built. If great wealth is going to be generated from it, then creative must be properly compensated. They should not be left at the bottom of a trillion dollars. Where does the podcast go from here? We're going to continue to widen the definition of creativity. We'll talk to people across different industries.

[00:25:56] We'll ask what technology enables them to do and what they don't want technology to do for them. We'll look at opportunities as well as consequences. We'll continue to explore creativity, technology, humanity, expertise, and changing creative practice. So I want to give a little update from my own writing world. As you might know, I'm also, as I said, I'm a working fiction writer.

[00:26:26] And another one of my stories, a short story, The Case of a Missing Body, is out now. It's part of the Lara's Detective Agency short story series. And there will be more short stories from Lara's Universe to come. You can get the short story on Amazon and on multiple platforms. Links will be in the show notes. I've also recently completed book two of the Toksadi mystery series. This is my gritty police procedural.

[00:26:55] And we're going through the editing process. The plan is for you to come out mid next year through my publisher, Jacaranda Books. So this is to let you know that I'm participating in the world that I'm discussing. And I'm dealing with these questions as a writer myself. And I'm passionate about wanting to support the writing world in this new normal.

[00:27:25] It's one of the reasons that I agreed to be on the board of Society of Authors, to be able to contribute to supporting authors, writers. I want to talk about the course that I'm teaching at the Women's Acclaims. So my pre-recorded crime writing course through University of Cambridge Pace is starting again in September. The previous one was in April.

[00:27:51] And it was lovely to have the students, to support them and to just read what creativity they have, what they're producing. The course is to provide students with a broad and engaging overview of crime fiction, tracing its development from the classic mysteries to contemporary international storytelling.

[00:28:16] To introduce students to the central craft techniques of crime writing, structure, characterization, suspense and setting, through examples drawn from classic and contemporary authors. So there'll be links in the show notes. Now I want to talk about something that is close to my heart and has been in the media. Professor Jason Adi.

[00:28:39] I wish to express my condolence at the recent death of Professor Jason Adi. I'm deeply saddened by the death and angry at the way he was targeted in the period leading up to his death. And my sincere condolences to his family and loved ones. He was the youngest black person appointed to a professorship at Cambridge University.

[00:29:07] And everything that led to what happened to him should not have happened. So I hope due diligence and due investigation will be done around his death. His memoir, Great and Unfortunate Things, will be out in the UK soon from Simon & Schuster. And the book is available for pre-order.

[00:29:33] Please order his book to learn of his extraordinary journey. The title is Great and Unfortunate Things. And my final thought on this solo episode, this long solo episode, is technology will continue to change. Creative people will continue adapting. Some of today's controversies will eventually disappear from the headlines.

[00:29:59] Or the underlying questions about authorship, creativity, authenticity, and humanity and going away. Those are the conversations I want to continue having on Talking Tech with Creatives. Thank you so much for listening to me. And have a wonderful time out there. Just a quick one. If you think that I could be a speaker at an event or organization,

[00:30:28] I'm happy for you to invite me. I'd like to talk about a few things that are close to my heart. You can find more information on StellaOni.com Slash. Thank you for listening to me. And goodbye.